[quote='Napoleon' pid='318394' dateline='1343913783']
[quote]So god does indeed punish those who he has knowingly created to be punished.[/quote]"So certain are you." Why do you think this is an either or situation?
[quote]There's a certain theme of assholeishness going on here isn't there.[/quote]If you were a person partial to puns you could have went with 'Ass-Holy-ness.' Eitherway, the only thing that does not benfit from a good asshole is what gets pooped out, or pooped on. Assholes may not be the most glarmous part of the body, (butt)
never the less they serve a purpose.
Here too God serves a purpose in the He 'spews out' all who do not want to be apart of the body of Christ. I do not think I would have been so bold as to aliterate God on your terms without your inital direction, but never the less your observation works.
[quote]Actually The bible tells us this very thing has happened.
[/quote]
[quote]So that's ok with you?[/quote]Well I understand it a little deeper than the, either/or you have made it to be, so yes i am fine with it.
[quote]I don't, I don't believe in heaven, I don't even believe there is such a thing as objective right and wrong. I'm merely trying to understand the christian rationale for this. [/quote]As I explained Biblical Christianity states Heaven is not a reward for the Just. for none deserve the 'reward' of Heaven. Like wise Hell was meant to be eternal punishment from the Devil and his demons, which does not automatically, translate to eternal punishment to everone else. Eternal seperation yes, but not nessarily 'punishement.'
[quote]So, you're saying, sin only matters if you know it is a sin. I can go around raping people, but if I don't know any better, I don't get punished for it.
Okay gotcha.[/quote]So, if you did not have the mental capasity to determine that forcing yourself onto someone else sexually was wrong, you would expect whatever authority over you to punish you like they would punish someone who had raped with malice his whole life???
Before God/Christ completed the Law in Mat 5 we did not know that lust was a sin, like we did not know Hate was akin to murder. Before that revelation was passed on from Christ God did not expect an attoning sacerfice for those sins. We are only responsiable for the extent of the revelation (Of God and His Kingdom) that we have been given.
(As per the parable of the talents)
[quote]So again we come back to this whole thing about god judging you for what HE has made you.[/quote]Why do you assume He has 'Made' you do anything? He has only allowed you to indulege in the 'nature' that wants you to seperate yourself from Him.
[quote]Seems a completely pointless exercise to me. Not to mention extremely rude of him.[/quote]What part is rude? Demanding accountablity? If you gave your brother a loan, and he blows it on pot, pizza and porn. Is it your fault for not micro managing his life for him, making him spend the money more wisly? would it be unreasonable for you to expect a return on what was given him?
Now what If he did squander your money each and every chance he got without fail, and even went so far as to declare that living off of what you provide for him would be his life's work. would you then be obligated to further enable his way of life?
or would simple accountablity keep you from giving him money each time he asked for it?
[quote](The point being
Heaven and Hell is not about the catholic model of reward and punishment you seem to only understand. For all who enter heaven do not deserve it, (So it can not be a just reward) and all who spend eternity in Hell do not want to serve in Heaven. What would be a true punishment is for all who hate God or will not even acknoweledge His existance to be forced into slavery to serve all the believers for all eternity. Living in literal paradise as a slave.
[/quote]
[quote]Well this is then nice isn't it.[/quote]
Again my above quote would be what 'punishment' would look like. Giving you the eternal seperation you currently seek from God is not exactly a punishment is it?
[quote]Okay, I'll take your viewpoint for a moment.
It still doesn't negate the fact that god has already decided what he is going to do with you before you were even brought into existing. [/quote]
This line of thought is based in liniar time, and incorrectly assumes God is bound to the same experience of time that you and I experience. Just by saying God is infinate (has no beginning and no end) Puts Him outside of our experience of time. Which means He does not live in the present as we do. Meaning he can experience or know the result of an event (like a human life span) before that life was even created.
So to say God chose those who would be saved before the creation of the world is no more 'mystical or biased' than you 'choosing' the survivors of a war movie you had already watched. You know who is going to live and who is going to die if you already had foreknoweledge of the plot and personally witness the recorded events. Even though you did not personally write or stage the movie yourself.
Like wise God knows those who will choose to call out to Him, and in turn He has laid a path to facilitate any and all of us who want to be with Him. We have been told no one Can seek the Father until the Father calls out to him. This does not mean we can not petition God to call out to us.
I was born and lived the first 1/2 of my life as a devoute atheist. It was not till I petitioned God to help me call out to Him that anything Changed in my life.
[quote]In such a scenario, this whole universe is basically a game. In fact it isn't a game, it's just a series of events playing out exactly as god wishes it.[/quote]Indeed, just not to the limitations or boundries you have put on God's "wishes."
[quote]Such an existence is pointless, and arbitrary.[/quote]Not if you are willing to look beyond your made up mind.
[quote]We are basically slaves. [/quote]I think you are finally starting to get it. We are either bound to the laws and conditions of Sin. Or we are bought by the blood of Christ and pressed into service where we are told His burden is easy and His Yoke is lite.
[quote]I have a problem with that. I would like to think any other rational person would as well.[/quote]By rational I assume you mean 'Proud.' If so, I have no doubt. If you are ready to cast your pride aside then simply ask for humility.
[quote]So god does indeed punish those who he has knowingly created to be punished.[/quote]"So certain are you." Why do you think this is an either or situation?
[quote]There's a certain theme of assholeishness going on here isn't there.[/quote]If you were a person partial to puns you could have went with 'Ass-Holy-ness.' Eitherway, the only thing that does not benfit from a good asshole is what gets pooped out, or pooped on. Assholes may not be the most glarmous part of the body, (butt)
never the less they serve a purpose.Here too God serves a purpose in the He 'spews out' all who do not want to be apart of the body of Christ. I do not think I would have been so bold as to aliterate God on your terms without your inital direction, but never the less your observation works.
[quote]Actually The bible tells us this very thing has happened.
[/quote]
[quote]So that's ok with you?[/quote]Well I understand it a little deeper than the, either/or you have made it to be, so yes i am fine with it.
[quote]I don't, I don't believe in heaven, I don't even believe there is such a thing as objective right and wrong. I'm merely trying to understand the christian rationale for this. [/quote]As I explained Biblical Christianity states Heaven is not a reward for the Just. for none deserve the 'reward' of Heaven. Like wise Hell was meant to be eternal punishment from the Devil and his demons, which does not automatically, translate to eternal punishment to everone else. Eternal seperation yes, but not nessarily 'punishement.'
[quote]So, you're saying, sin only matters if you know it is a sin. I can go around raping people, but if I don't know any better, I don't get punished for it.
Okay gotcha.[/quote]So, if you did not have the mental capasity to determine that forcing yourself onto someone else sexually was wrong, you would expect whatever authority over you to punish you like they would punish someone who had raped with malice his whole life???
Before God/Christ completed the Law in Mat 5 we did not know that lust was a sin, like we did not know Hate was akin to murder. Before that revelation was passed on from Christ God did not expect an attoning sacerfice for those sins. We are only responsiable for the extent of the revelation (Of God and His Kingdom) that we have been given.
(As per the parable of the talents)
[quote]So again we come back to this whole thing about god judging you for what HE has made you.[/quote]Why do you assume He has 'Made' you do anything? He has only allowed you to indulege in the 'nature' that wants you to seperate yourself from Him.
[quote]Seems a completely pointless exercise to me. Not to mention extremely rude of him.[/quote]What part is rude? Demanding accountablity? If you gave your brother a loan, and he blows it on pot, pizza and porn. Is it your fault for not micro managing his life for him, making him spend the money more wisly? would it be unreasonable for you to expect a return on what was given him?
Now what If he did squander your money each and every chance he got without fail, and even went so far as to declare that living off of what you provide for him would be his life's work. would you then be obligated to further enable his way of life?
or would simple accountablity keep you from giving him money each time he asked for it?
[quote](The point being
Heaven and Hell is not about the catholic model of reward and punishment you seem to only understand. For all who enter heaven do not deserve it, (So it can not be a just reward) and all who spend eternity in Hell do not want to serve in Heaven. What would be a true punishment is for all who hate God or will not even acknoweledge His existance to be forced into slavery to serve all the believers for all eternity. Living in literal paradise as a slave.[/quote]
[quote]Well this is then nice isn't it.[/quote]
Again my above quote would be what 'punishment' would look like. Giving you the eternal seperation you currently seek from God is not exactly a punishment is it?
[quote]Okay, I'll take your viewpoint for a moment.
It still doesn't negate the fact that god has already decided what he is going to do with you before you were even brought into existing. [/quote]
This line of thought is based in liniar time, and incorrectly assumes God is bound to the same experience of time that you and I experience. Just by saying God is infinate (has no beginning and no end) Puts Him outside of our experience of time. Which means He does not live in the present as we do. Meaning he can experience or know the result of an event (like a human life span) before that life was even created.
So to say God chose those who would be saved before the creation of the world is no more 'mystical or biased' than you 'choosing' the survivors of a war movie you had already watched. You know who is going to live and who is going to die if you already had foreknoweledge of the plot and personally witness the recorded events. Even though you did not personally write or stage the movie yourself.
Like wise God knows those who will choose to call out to Him, and in turn He has laid a path to facilitate any and all of us who want to be with Him. We have been told no one Can seek the Father until the Father calls out to him. This does not mean we can not petition God to call out to us.
I was born and lived the first 1/2 of my life as a devoute atheist. It was not till I petitioned God to help me call out to Him that anything Changed in my life.
[quote]In such a scenario, this whole universe is basically a game. In fact it isn't a game, it's just a series of events playing out exactly as god wishes it.[/quote]Indeed, just not to the limitations or boundries you have put on God's "wishes."
[quote]Such an existence is pointless, and arbitrary.[/quote]Not if you are willing to look beyond your made up mind.
[quote]We are basically slaves. [/quote]I think you are finally starting to get it. We are either bound to the laws and conditions of Sin. Or we are bought by the blood of Christ and pressed into service where we are told His burden is easy and His Yoke is lite.
[quote]I have a problem with that. I would like to think any other rational person would as well.[/quote]By rational I assume you mean 'Proud.' If so, I have no doubt. If you are ready to cast your pride aside then simply ask for humility.
