How would you know?

[Napoléon]

There's a certain theme of assholeishness going on here isn't there.

If you were a person partial to puns you could have went with 'Ass-Holy-ness.' Eitherway, the only thing that does not benfit from a good asshole is what gets pooped out, or pooped on. Assholes may not be the most glarmous part of the body, (butt) never the less they serve a purpose.

Damn, why the fuck didn't I think of that.

Here too God serves a purpose in the He 'spews out' all who do not want to be apart of the body of Christ. I do not think I would have been so bold as to aliterate God on your terms without your inital direction, but never the less your observation works.

The observation as I see it still isn't a pleasant one no matter how you dress it up. But hey, the universe isn't nice, here I was thinking your god was.

Well I understand it a little deeper than the, either/or you have made it to be, so yes i am fine with it.

Well if you think my understanding of the scenario's I've put forth are simplistic then feel free to explain what makes your views so much deeper than mine.

As I explained Biblical Christianity states Heaven is not a reward for the Just. for none deserve the 'reward' of Heaven. Like wise Hell was meant to be eternal punishment from the Devil and his demons, which does not automatically, translate to eternal punishment to everone else. Eternal seperation yes, but not nessarily 'punishement.'

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven

http://bible.cc/matthew/5-12.htm

Is this a semantics thing? Heaven is not the reward, but you receive it 'in' heaven.

Either way, this is probably going to go askew from the OP. So try and relate as much as possible if you can.

So, if you did not have the mental capasity to determine that forcing yourself onto someone else sexually was wrong, you would expect whatever authority over you to punish you like they would punish someone who had raped with malice his whole life???

There is a difference between having a mental problem which makes you unable to comprehend that rape is a bad thing, and being brought up in a world where rape is casually accepted.

In terms of the latter, in my opinion, it doesn't have a whole lot to do with mental capacity.

As for expecting god to punish anyone for crimes which he himself supposedly thinks are sinful, I would instead question why he has made a scenario possible where one can commit these sins and get away with it. Regardless of mental capacity, being brought up in a secluded environment, whatever, that's actually not the issue.

If this supreme being has supposedly created the system. Then he's made it with rather large loopholes.

Before God/Christ completed the Law in Mat 5 we did not know that lust was a sin, like we did not know Hate was akin to murder. Before that revelation was passed on from Christ God did not expect an attoning sacerfice for those sins.

I've just read a bit of Matthew from what I quoted earlier.

Does this then mean that gods laws are open to change any time he pleases? It would certainly suggest so.

Why was it ok to hate one minute, and not the other. Sounds like this guy can't make up his mind.

If he supposedly has these eternal laws, and an absolute moral stance, then how can he change his mind in such a way.


Oh but wait, you said he 'completed his law'. Guess this is a cop out, god just likes to take his time in telling us right?

Why do you assume He has 'Made' you do anything? He has only allowed you to indulege in the 'nature' that wants you to seperate yourself from Him.

He's the creator of everything. If he knows everything and created everything the 'nature' or choice, is non existent. It's impossible for it to be so.

God sets the boundaries, god makes the rules, god makes the players.

To say he lets us do our own thing, while he actively knows what we are going to do before hand and made us so we would do such things anyway, is ludicrous.

Please tell me where the element of choice (or nature as you called it) is in that.

What part is rude?

You don't think it's rude to create an organism, give it set rules to live by, and make it in such a way that it will break those rules, giving you the ability to then punish them, for something you didn't have to do?

That's not the slightest bit rude?

Demanding accountablity? If you gave your brother a loan, and he blows it on pot, pizza and porn. Is it your fault for not micro managing his life for him, making him spend the money more wisly?

If you already knew your brother would blow the loan on pot, pizza and porn would you still give him the loan?

NO, YOU FUCKING WOULDN'T WOULD YOU.

Same applies with this asshole god.

would it be unreasonable for you to expect a return on what was given him?

Yes, considering you knew beforehand he would break the terms of the loan.

This is called loan sharking.

God is the loan shark.

Now what If he did squander your money each and every chance he got without fail, and even went so far as to declare that living off of what you provide for him would be his life's work. would you then be obligated to further enable his way of life?

No.

or would simple accountablity keep you from giving him money each time he asked for it?

Yes.

Again my above quote would be what 'punishment' would look like. Giving you the eternal seperation you currently seek from God is not exactly a punishment is it?

So you're saying, because I'm an atheist, I automatically want to be without god, if there is an afterlife?

Bullshit.

This line of thought is based in liniar time, and incorrectly assumes God is bound to the same experience of time that you and I experience.

No, I'm assuming that we as humans experience time. I couldn't give a fuck what realm, dimension or reality god was in. But we obviously experience 'time'. So there was definitely a 'before' we are born.

Just by saying God is infinate (has no beginning and no end) Puts Him outside of our experience of time. Which means He does not live in the present as we do. Meaning he can experience or know the result of an event (like a human life span) before that life was even created.

It doesn't matter what experience of time god is going through. I couldn't give a flying fuck.

The universe he created (if you want to assume he created it), obviously has this essence of time. And it is in this universe, that we exist.

Now god must obviously have the capability to exist (in some fashion) in this universe as well.

(If I go along with your concept of god)

Jesus, didn't come around at a time 'beyond time'.

Matthew, didn't complete gods laws, at a time 'beyond time'.

The isolated islander, does not exist, at a time 'beyond time'.

So why the fuck does it matter, if there is a before each of these people, and god existed at that before moment, he knew what he was doing and what the outcome would be BEFORE these people.

So, ignoring my rant for a moment, you seem to contradict yourself.

You say that god is outside this concept of time, yet you also say he existed before you and I are born. Which one is it.

Honestly this is getting deeper and deeper into the realm of philosobabble.

So to say God chose those who would be saved before the creation of the world is no more 'mystical or biased' than you 'choosing' the survivors of a war movie you had already watched.

But I wasn't the director of the movie.

You know who is going to live and who is going to die if you already had foreknoweledge of the plot and personally witness the recorded events. Even though you did not personally write or stage the movie yourself.

But god did.

He wrote the script so to speak.

Your analogies are actually rather useful at highlighting my own points.

Like wise God knows those who will choose to call out to Him, and in turn He has laid a path to facilitate any and all of us who want to be with Him.

Favouritism.

We have been told no one Can seek the Father until the Father calls out to him.

So he's aside from being an incredibly rude loan shark who makes all the rules, created everyone, everything and time itself, he picks and chooses who he would like to join him up in his little throne room.

If this god did exist, he's a jackass.

I am amazed that so many theists just don't see it.

I guess it really is blind fear, or lack of a spine which makes you not call him out for the asshole he is.

This does not mean we can not petition God to call out to us.

And how/why would I go about such a thing, being an atheist.

The Herp Derp factor is growing I'm afraid.

I was born and lived the first 1/2 of my life as a devoute atheist. It was not till I petitioned God to help me call out to Him that anything Changed in my life.

If you were a real fucking atheist, you could not possibly petition a god to come and help you.

I really do not buy into any of this bullshit, you were never an atheist if you think you can randomly call out to god.


Anyway, I don't really care what your were, or what you think you were.

Indeed, just not to the limitations or boundries you have put on God's "wishes."

When have I put any limitations or boundaries on what god can do?

I'm the one who has been making the point for the last three quarters of an hour of writing this, that god can do anything, see anything and basically be anything.

It's you who is putting on the boundaries.

Such an existence is pointless, and arbitrary.

Not if you are willing to look beyond your made up mind.

It's becoming more and more evident to me, that the religious are the closed minded ones. The ones with their minds already made up.

We are basically slaves.

I think you are finally starting to get it.

Well I, unlike many others obviously, am not happy with being a slave.

"I'm not a slave, to a god, that doesn't exist" - Marilyn Manson.

We are either bound to the laws and conditions of Sin. Or we are bought by the blood of Christ and pressed into service where we are told His burden is easy and His Yoke is lite.

Sounds shit. Have fun wasting your life with it though.

I have a problem with that. I would like to think any other rational person would as well.

By rational I assume you mean 'Proud.' If so, I have no doubt. If you are ready to cast your pride aside then simply ask for humility.

Oh Drich. You've gave me a good time writing this. I thank you for that.

But honestly, I find your world view so whacked out and excruciatingly stupid, that I don't think I'll be converting any time soon, or even in this lifetime.

Seems to me it's you who is the proud one, so proud of your all loving, all powerful god. And you're right, you do show humility as well.

But I'm not going to show humiliation by bowing to a being that I have no idea whether it exists or not. Certainly not one that hasn't had the common decency to say hello.

So with that, I'll say thanks for the chat. It's been interesting, and I look forward to hearing your responses. If I feel we're gonna be going over the same arguments though, I likely won't respond again.

Cheers.

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But as long as we are imagining, why limit your imagination to just heaven and hell? Catholics, for example, believe in a third destination called Purgatoy. Most end up there, they believe, and all eventually leave there and exit to heaven.

Purgatory isn't even supported by the bible. It's bullshit the catholics made up to try and account for scenarios such as the one I described in the OP.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

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I prefer facts and reality to imagination.

Einstein had to imagine his theory of relativity before anyone believed it was real. Proponents of string theory are now imagining something else.

The difference between Einstein's theory of relativity and theories about god though?

Oh yeah, that little thing known as scientific evidence.