A Real and Significant Biblical Contradiction?

[spockrates]

And if the prophet gives a deceiving prophecy, then I the LORD have deceived him by not giving him the prophecy, I will make a fool of him before My nation, Israel, for trying to deceive them.


The two verses have nothing to do with each other. I hope this clears things up for you.

Actually, it's still clear as mud!



The writer of Hebrews says it is impossible for God to lie. Ezekiel quotes God as saying he himself deceives. Are you thinking that deceiving is not the same as telling a lie?

The writer of Hebrews is correct, God can not lie, deceiving and lying are not necessarily the same. Example military battles are often won by deception. This would actually qualify as a strategy.

Thanks for the reply GC. So to say the deception of Ezekiel is the same as the same as the telling of a lie of Hebrews would be akin to committing the informal fallacy of equivocation? To equivocate telling a lie with deception is illogical? You might be onto something there. I suppose one might reasonably say that all telling of lies is deception, but not all deception is telling of lies. One might logically assert that God never lies, but does sometimes deceive. Is this what you are saying?

What I was trying to explain is this, God allowed the false prophet to believe his own deception, God actually never deceived the false prophet but allowed the prophet to try and deceive Israel.

But why do you believe God actually never deceived the prophet? What else do these words of God mean?

"... I the Lord have deceived that prophet... ."

(Ezekiel 14:9)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=KJV

Not sure why you need to back off your premise that not all deception is telling a lie. I see no reason to, at the moment--unless I was mistaken about what you were trying to assert.

God punished the prophet for his deceitful work by ruining his reputation as a prophet so the Israelites would not listen to him. In actuality God was protecting His reputation as one who does not lie. If the people of Israel believed the prophecy and it did not come to past, then the people would say God has deceived us. Hope this helps.

Wouldn't the false prophet's inaccurate prediction be evidence he was not speaking for God? Seems to me this is what Moses quotes God as saying:

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

(Deuteronomy 18)

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The writer of Hebrews says it is impossible for God to lie. Ezekiel quotes God as saying he himself deceives. Are you thinking that deceiving is not the same as telling a lie?

No for the word in the Hebrew is: פתה pathah It tied to the concept of allowing one's self to be persuaded. In essence God allowed them to induldge their own vanity because of their sin.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...6601&t=KJV
Click on the Gesenius's Lexicon drop down for a more detailed explaination.

Yes, I agree there is a difference between self-deception and deception caused by another. But isn't God saying that he is the one doing the deceiving?

"...I the LORD have deceived that prophet... ."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=KJV

The Hebrew word that equates to the greek word found in Hebrews 6 (pseudomai) is: שָׁקַרshaqar It means to lie or to tell a falsehood as it's greek counter part found in Heb 6.

The website or 'reference material' you used to point out this supposed contradiction is compareing apples and oranges. If the bible was orginally written in english, you might have a case. but as these two passages were being only repersented by the english, one would have to be desperate to make a case, to take the english definations/understandings as the final word here.

Are you thinking the King James version has mistranslated Ezekiel?

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Ezekiel says God deceives; the writer of Hebrews says it's impossible for God to lie. Not sure why you don't see a conflict between the two. You Rythm are a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, deep within a black hole of that which I might never know!

Ezekiel says? Ezekiel? When I pronounce the name aloud it sounds similar to the sound my cat makes when she attepts to eject a hair ball. Ezekiel?

Perhaps you didn't notice when you joined, but this is the Atheist Forums. You seem to be trying to give Rhythm stick by invoking a contradiction. Wasn't this the mission of your two posts? You've recognized a contradiction, now go ponder it. We don't really give a shit what Ezekial or Hebrews has to say. We recognize the contradiction and leave it as such, but you want to try and tell us the contradiction isn't really what it appears to be by means of definition hocus pocus and invoking multi-language translations.

One ass or two? Did I lose you? Did your savior triumphantly ride into Jerusalem on one ass or two? Your gospels seem to differ in opinion. Riding on 'them'; don't forget this bit. In fact, in this case, it's a missed translation that causes the contradiction (you'll understand my meaning if you know anything about the history of the gospels).

Cato:

Don't you know that things are not always as they seem? I am keenly aware of my susceptibility to self-deception. So I ask what others think. To ponder alone is less likely to cure me of my deception than to think it through with others. The same is true if I'm not deceived: To ponder alone is less likely to assure me I'm not deceived than than to think it through with people like you.

Regarding this being an atheist-only forum, I read online that this is a forum designed for atheists, agnostics and people of religios faiths to respectfully discuss. Was I deceived about that, too?