Prayer?

[Drich]

Then they didn't have free will.

did they have the ablity to sin? then they had 'free will' as God defines it.

Free will as defined today means the ability to make your own choices.

No where in the bible are we promised this at any time. this is not free will. This is freedom of choice. Free will as the bible defines it is the ablity to sin. This they had, this we have.

If they had no choice but to follow through with this plan... If you believe in hell, this makes your God ultimately unjust. You do see what I'm talking about?

Nope.

He's neither loving nor just in the model you propose.

God is loving if you seek His love. God is Just if you seek The attonement offered. He will be neither to those who do not seek what He has offered. Both Love and Justice are conditional gifts.

Actually, yes I can. Because it doesn't matter whether or not I was asked then, it matters if I am asked now.

It 'matters' from a state of ignorance (of God) and it did not matter when you knew of God and all He could offer if you remained faithful for 70 years or so?

If was to be offered this choice now as the individual I label "me" I might have a difference of opinion than some ethereal version of myself.

I am suggesting that the 'ethereal' version of yourself had duluded himself into thinking He was god's goto guy, and when you were seperated from God your true colors came out. So now when you go before God in judgement there can be no doubt in your mind who you are and where your heart truly stands.

Choice isn't "the ability to sin".

Free Will is the ablity to sin. The difference being Adam and Eve had the ablity to sin (as evidence by the tree place in the garden before they were) long before they had the capasity.

Choice is the capacity to choose whether or not you will sin.

agree.

Huge difference. Nobody can choose to not sin, bar Heyseuse.

Bar=Son of, Heyseus=Jesus?

If it's "God's plan" that I have to sin and have no choice in the matter and the very essence of what is "me" was created by him, then I am not at fault for sinning. He made me to sin. I am a sinning robot, if you will.

Yes!

No matter what you do you will always be a sinning robot. Paul says slave to sin but in essence it is the same thing.

Now complete the line of logic... Since you were created a sinner and you have no choice but to sin then that means you are doomed to Hell... Unless an attoning sacerfice has been made on your behalf! Now as a robot your programmer must have also programmed you to accept this attonement did He not?

[Free will entails the ability to choose. That is the meaning of the phrase. If you think you are justified in using it like you are, then go ahead and prove it to me with logic and not verses from your Bible.

moving the goal posts again???

Show me why I am wrong to ask for extra-biblical evidence for claims made in the bible.

AGAIN, Because Everything you know of God came from the bible. Even the broken logic that had you ask the orginal question that started this mess. Except! now that you have established God with the bible and formulated a question against his nature, with what you have learned from the bible. you refuse the bible (The Same Source You Used To Identify God, and Frame your Question) No longer a valid source. Do you need me to repost the defination, for that is a perfect example of moving the goal posts fallacy!

Actually, he created this culture. He planned it this way. So yes, he is very much "part of this culture".

Proof?

Because he could care less about the sufferings occurring in the world. He wants people to kiss his ass before he can save a single child from an apartment fire that killed 67? bullshit. That's disgusting.

again pushing those who hate further away, and drawing those who love him closer in.

Your meaningless dribble can be saved for Sundays. Pain and suffering are "humbling"? O.K. It shows that we are weak and can't keep everyone from suffering. But God can, and he doesn't.

Those who have endured suffering along side a loving God know it's value and do not shy from it when it comes back around. those who choose to go through suffering alone are embittered by it.

I refuse to look at Wikipedia pages as a rebuttal. Either answer me or forfeit the argument. Clear as crystal.

What about a similar page from Purdue University: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/
-or-
http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/logi...lacies.htm
-or-
http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/EN...lacies.htm

Look sport, your appeal to logical fallacies with me is over. whether you understand what a fallacy is or not. If you want to chase your tail with your own home spun brand of thought/logic then feel free to do so. just know i am not going to spin around with you and help you catch it. If you will open you mind a little wider you might learn something, but closing it using logical fallacies will ensure that you will only think as you have been indoctrinated.

Am I asking about the nature of the God of the Bible? No!
I am and have been asking for proof of a historical event, the revealing of a God to prophets and random peeps in the past. That is first and foremost a historical claim, not a biblical one. That is why I maintain I am not moving the goalposts.

How do you know of the God of the bible? where did they Learn? Now keep going to you get back to the bible.. Do you see your delima?

Then traditional prayer is useless?

what is traditional prayer? Christ established 'Prayer' from the begining. Anything labled prayer that does not follow His model is not prayer not 'traditional.'

Very much like talking to an imaginary friend, it can only bring comfort. Still, you would have to have a twisted mind to derive comfort from a God who would allow a large portion of the world to starve to death and die of illness.

Death is one's birth into eternity!! Do you lement when a baby is born? The only reason Death is a 'bad thing' is when you know you will not be spending eternity with God.

God doesn't "answer" prayers.

No He does every single one! It's what you think prayer is, isn't a prayer at all. To me is sounds like wish making.

If I was standing still and someone asked me to stand still, would I be responding in any meaningful way if my intentions from the start were to remain standing still?

What makes 'standing still' in a proper prayer, an answered prayer is when 'standing still' becomes a great benfit for you.

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[quote='Rhythm' pid='320519' dateline='1344370493']
No, lol, no Drich, it's your baby, do your own work. You won't be escaping your responsibilities in conversation with me anytime soon. You want to re-write a myth, make it so. I'm just going to assume the Drich mantle throughout and demand biblical citations or dismiss it out of hand. Everytimje you stray from the narrative, everytime you insert your own fantasy, I'm going to remind you that you aren't conveying a biblically based narrative, but a Drich-based narrative. That's fair, don't you think? Then, when we're done, I'm going to remind you that it's bullshit regardless of whether or not you have biblical references in the first place.

what else is their to explore then? i have posted my thoughts and the supporting scripture... So 'remind me.'