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How would you know?
#89
RE: How would you know?
(August 7, 2012 at 3:43 pm)Napoleon Wrote:
(August 7, 2012 at 8:56 am)spockrates Wrote: Please tell me what you think, Napoleon.

Just sounds like a story about a poor guy going to heaven and a rich guy going to hell.

Really don't see any mention of any place at all. So where you think Lazarus and Abraham are, is really just conjecture.

I would simply assume heaven.

You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to try and justify it, but there is nowhere near enough material in those verses to justify the concept of purgatory. (Yeah, I know that's not what your saying, but I'm just saying stating what I think)

If purgatory was meant to be a real christian teaching, then I'd expect more of a description of it, in fact, there really is no description of it at all in the versed you quote.

Yes, but many Protestant Christians would disagree with you. No one entered heaven prior to Christ's resurrection, they say. A Baptist pastor went so far as to tell me that Abraham, David and other OT patriarchs must be in hell, for they died before Christ rose from the dead!

One passage they cite for their belief:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

(1 Corinthians 15:20)


Other Protestant Christians say the patriarchs put faith in a future resurrection of Christ, and so were saved from hell, but also admit these patriarchs did not enter heaven until after Christ was raised. Where did they go, if not to heaven?






Still, Catholics do believe there are specific descriptions of Purgatory in the New Testament--although they admit Protestant Christians disagree with their interpretations of the passages. The scriptures they cite:

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

(Hebrews 12:14)


Without holiness no one will see God in heaven, and most die unholy and not saints, Catholics say.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

--Jesus (Matthew 5:48)


Even Jesus commands us to be perfect, but few are able to achieve such moral perfection this side of Purgatory, or heaven, Catholics say.

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

(1 Corinthians 3)


After death, the deeds of the unholy will be tested and refined (or made perfect) in Purgatory, they say. And they believe other passages describe Purgatory, and the necessity of it, as well.





For me, personally, one difficulty I had when I was a Fundamentalist Baptist, and later an Evangelical, was with the idea of heaven, hell and nothing else after death.

"What about good people who just happen to be atheists?" I asked my teachers. "Would it be just for God to condemn them to hell simply because they didn't have enough information to believe?" The answer they gave that everyone deserved hell and we were just blessed enough to find the truth that saved us did not satisfy me, as it did not agree with my concept of what a good and merciful and just God should be. Nor did it agree with my understanding of some scriptures, such as this one:

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

(John 9:41)


Why should those who don't see that they are wrong to not believe be culpable for their ignorance? (I'm speaking from my own Christian perspective, of course, and not saying you are ignorant. I might be self-deceived, and so the ignorant one! My personal perspective is also not yet a Catholic one, for I don't yet consider myself to be Catholic, even though I see some good reasons for some of what they believe.)

Smile
"If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (no matter how improbable) must be the truth."

--Spock
Reply



Messages In This Thread
How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 1, 2012 at 6:44 pm
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 1, 2012 at 7:01 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 1, 2012 at 7:04 pm
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 1, 2012 at 7:10 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 1, 2012 at 7:12 pm
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 1, 2012 at 7:44 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Cinjin - August 1, 2012 at 7:57 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Anomalocaris - August 1, 2012 at 7:18 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Erinome - August 1, 2012 at 8:09 pm
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2012 at 7:02 pm
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 1, 2012 at 7:58 pm
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2012 at 8:13 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Erinome - August 1, 2012 at 8:17 pm
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 1, 2012 at 8:13 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Cinjin - August 1, 2012 at 8:15 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Minimalist - August 1, 2012 at 8:27 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Drich - August 1, 2012 at 11:04 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Cinjin - August 1, 2012 at 11:11 pm
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 2, 2012 at 1:36 am
RE: How would you know? - by Drich - August 2, 2012 at 8:28 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 2, 2012 at 9:23 am
RE: How would you know? - by Drich - August 2, 2012 at 5:32 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 3, 2012 at 8:32 am
RE: How would you know? - by Drich - August 3, 2012 at 2:14 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 3, 2012 at 2:41 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Drich - August 3, 2012 at 7:28 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Undeceived - August 2, 2012 at 2:14 am
RE: How would you know? - by downbeatplumb - August 2, 2012 at 8:25 am
RE: How would you know? - by Faith No More - August 2, 2012 at 8:10 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 2, 2012 at 8:20 am
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 2, 2012 at 2:28 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 2, 2012 at 3:56 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Faith No More - August 2, 2012 at 5:42 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Drich - August 2, 2012 at 5:50 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Faith No More - August 2, 2012 at 5:52 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Drich - August 2, 2012 at 6:25 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 2, 2012 at 6:13 pm
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 2, 2012 at 7:37 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 2, 2012 at 7:48 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Drich - August 2, 2012 at 8:52 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Faith No More - August 2, 2012 at 6:29 pm
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 2, 2012 at 8:16 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 2, 2012 at 8:17 pm
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 2, 2012 at 8:34 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Norfolk And Chance - August 2, 2012 at 8:56 pm
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 3, 2012 at 6:48 am
RE: How would you know? - by Faith No More - August 2, 2012 at 8:59 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Cinjin - August 2, 2012 at 11:33 pm
RE: How would you know? - by CliveStaples - August 2, 2012 at 11:37 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Cinjin - August 2, 2012 at 11:39 pm
RE: How would you know? - by CliveStaples - August 2, 2012 at 11:42 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Cinjin - August 2, 2012 at 11:45 pm
RE: How would you know? - by CliveStaples - August 7, 2012 at 2:45 am
RE: How would you know? - by Norfolk And Chance - August 3, 2012 at 7:41 am
RE: How would you know? - by Zen Badger - August 3, 2012 at 9:07 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 4, 2012 at 8:11 am
RE: How would you know? - by Norfolk And Chance - August 4, 2012 at 9:13 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 4, 2012 at 9:20 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 4, 2012 at 10:38 am
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 4, 2012 at 10:51 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 4, 2012 at 10:59 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 4, 2012 at 12:49 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 4, 2012 at 1:44 pm
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 4, 2012 at 1:53 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 4, 2012 at 2:02 pm
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 5, 2012 at 9:08 am
RE: How would you know? - by KichigaiNeko - August 3, 2012 at 8:26 am
RE: How would you know? - by KichigaiNeko - August 3, 2012 at 9:16 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 3, 2012 at 7:46 pm
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 3, 2012 at 7:54 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 3, 2012 at 7:57 pm
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 3, 2012 at 8:52 pm
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 3, 2012 at 8:55 pm
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 4, 2012 at 9:53 am
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 4, 2012 at 10:54 am
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 4, 2012 at 10:56 am
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 4, 2012 at 11:01 am
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 4, 2012 at 11:07 am
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 4, 2012 at 11:09 am
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 5, 2012 at 9:15 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 5, 2012 at 9:18 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 7, 2012 at 6:58 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 7, 2012 at 7:28 am
RE: How would you know? - by CliveStaples - August 9, 2012 at 5:54 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 9, 2012 at 6:21 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 5, 2012 at 9:16 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 7, 2012 at 6:01 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 7, 2012 at 8:56 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 7, 2012 at 3:43 pm
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 8, 2012 at 9:39 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 8, 2012 at 10:11 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 8, 2012 at 10:13 am
RE: How would you know? - by catfish - August 8, 2012 at 10:15 am
RE: How would you know? - by spockrates - August 8, 2012 at 10:20 am
RE: How would you know? - by jonb - August 8, 2012 at 10:38 am
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 8, 2012 at 1:07 pm
RE: How would you know? - by jonb - August 8, 2012 at 4:30 pm
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 8, 2012 at 8:27 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 8, 2012 at 8:32 pm
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 8, 2012 at 8:38 pm
RE: How would you know? - by MountOlympus - August 8, 2012 at 8:45 pm
RE: How would you know? - by Napoléon - August 9, 2012 at 8:04 am
RE: How would you know? - by jonb - August 8, 2012 at 8:58 pm
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 8, 2012 at 11:33 pm
RE: How would you know? - by jonb - August 9, 2012 at 7:03 am
RE: How would you know? - by padraic - August 9, 2012 at 7:28 am
RE: How would you know? - by MountOlympus - August 9, 2012 at 11:24 am
RE: How would you know? - by The Grand Nudger - August 9, 2012 at 1:09 pm
RE: How would you know? - by jonb - August 9, 2012 at 1:19 pm

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