Why was the crucifixion necessary ?

[pocaracas]

I think I spotted your problem, there.
Who told you that?

"we are told" Means we are told in the bible. It is akin to Jesus or Paul saying "it is written."

I can present you with a book that claims that three little pigs can build houses. "it is written". Does that make it true? does that make it real? can you understand the difference between these two concepts?

But I asked you to be recursive.... Someone wrote whatever is on the bible. How did that person come to have that knowledge?

How did that person come to have that knowledge (use recursion here until you arrive at the origin of the knowledge)?

Romans 6:23 is the orgins of that principle.

did you mean this:

Romans 6:23

New International Version (NIV)

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sorry for being stupid, but I fail to see how that knowledge came to be in the possession of a human being.

To me, if there was a god, there wouldn't be any atheists.

1/2 right. In that if their was undeniable evidence of God their couldn't be any atheists. Which if you look at the big picture it would also mean free will would not be possible either. For self preservation (from Hell) would over ride any consciousness decision to separate oneself from God. However as it is (because of doubt) one can confidently separate himself from God in favor of any number of 'other' beliefs.

Aye... the absent god...
The fear of hell that the clerics have bestowed upon mankind. Again, how does anyone know that there is such a thing? ...Oh yeah, written in a book...
I don't buy that, in case you haven't noticed.

God would show it self to all....

If God's objective is to force everyone into Heaven despite what He or she may actually want deep down.

According to the myth, the guy created this rock and all the bugs that inhabit it. Why should he care what the bugs choose to believe?
If he wanted the bugs' souls near him.... why not just create a bunch of souls to keep him company? Why bother with this rock?

and there wouldn't be more than one "belief system"...

If God were to demand this then many by the token of our individuality would fall short of this one religion. As it is we are all to worship to the best of our ability. Now because we are all different our worship looks different, and the same grace that covers our sins also covers our failed worship. What is left is the purest form of worship one can give. (I went into this in detail in my "The reason for so many denominations" thread.)

What I meant was that everyone would know of the existence of a given super-natural being. Not 100, not 3, not 50.... just that one (or that one group... who knows?)

well, then it wouldn't be much of a "belief".... it would just be known to all that god is "such and such", because he would... Tell us all, and keep reminding us all.... Always himself, never through strange ancient fallible gullible proxies.

which would undermine His stated reason for giving us this life. to choose where we are to spend eternity.

How do you know that that is his reason for giving us this life? It is written? oh, yeah.... not buying it, remember?
How is it that anyone ever came to know that?
Was it written before anyone wrote it?!

God plan for this life is to give us choice. True choice would not be possible if one knew of God, Heaven and Hell. For your fear of hell would distort any real choice that you would make. That is why knowledge of God is held back from those who will choose or have chosen to separate themselves from God.

soooo.... some options are always good:
- If I believe there is a hell, I choose to steer clear of it.
- If I know there is a hell, I choose to steer clear of it.
- If I don't believe there is a hell, I don't choose anything.
- If I don't know there is a hell, I don't choose anything.

How is knowledge different from belief, here?
Of course, I refuse to believe, so I could only be lead to steer clear of hell by knowing about it. And your god would know this very well, but still decline me the knowledge that would steer me in his direction. Why create something to send to hell?

I cannot choose to believe. I refuse to believe in the existence of the super-natural. My mind doesn't allow such nonsense.

---

From my experience, love comes after knowledge that the person being loved exists.

So it is not possiable for babies and small children to love their mothers? After all isn't self awareness a requirement before conscious awareness of others is possiable?

Or Maybe God requirement of love goes beyond the eros(desire based love) you are refering to.

Some species are born and associate the first living thing they see with their mothers. If there is love in there or not, I don't know.... If there is love in a days old baby, I don't know. Do you know? Eventually, kids grow and come to love their parents... but they know about them, by then, don't you agree?