(August 30, 2012 at 12:27 am)Undeceived Wrote:(August 29, 2012 at 11:14 pm)greneknight Wrote: It's the same old trite argument that has been circulating for centuries. I have an answer to itLet's hear it. Why is the Christian God not the best conclusion for his points?
-complexity of the cell
-fine-tuning of the universe
-depth of human evil
-fact of morality
-reality of morality in the world
-purpose of human reason and search for truth
It's raining now and I have 20 mins before it's ok to cycle. I'll answer you briefly. If you want a full debate, we can arrange for a formal debate and I'll be happy to take you on. I'll deal with your points briefly:
-complexity of the cell
No big deal. It used to be that people say the human eye was irreducibly complex and so voila! God must have made it. It was subsequently found that the simpler eye which we thought could serve no purpose and couldn't have existed exists in some organisms and they're perfectly functioning. Irreducible complexity is bunkum - the language of my fellow believers who refuse to see the light.
-fine-tuning of the universe
This is laughable. We ask about fine-tuning because we happen to live in such a universe. If the universe had not formed in a manner to support life and collapsed and another big bang happened, what's the big deal. Just wait until finally a big bang happens in a manner where things appear fine-tuned and life can form and then someone is going to say fine tuning is caused by a creator. You see my point. I also read somewhere that the constants aren't so do-or-die. Apparently if you don't have the same constants, it may very well be that the universe would take a very different state from what we are used to and other forms could take shape and intelligent life forms that evolved in such a different universe will say theirs are the only constants that could support life and have a "stable" universe.
-depth of human evil
What in God's name can that have any bearing on whether God exists? An evil T-Rex is proof that God exists? Oh, for crying out loud!
-fact of morality
Same as above. What about morality that allows you to say, "Voila! God exists!!!!"
-reality of morality in the world
Again, what's the relevance? You got a problem with morality? You keep repeating yourself. I suggest you see my vicar for confession. He says confession can be therapeutic. It treats the mind and you think it treats the soul but that's ok.
-purpose of human reason and search for truth
I have searched for the truth and I know the Bible isn't the truth. I know religion isn't truth. Religion is antithetical to truth. But we love religion for it acts as a cultural compass.
Purpose of human reason? That's a cart-before-the-horse reasoning. I don't know the philosophical term (such as ad hom, etc) but in Sir Greneknight's language, it's the cart-before-the-horse reasoning. You first decide that God is supreme. You decide that the purpose for EVERYTHING is to glorify God (although I haven't the foggiest why God needs glorifying so badly). And then you CREATE a purpose for everything, starting with human reason and voila! the purpose of human reason is to discover God and glorify his name. That's a silly argument. When you ask about purpose, it's a loaded question. To say something has a purpose is to suggest there is some intelligent force out there that created the purpose. That's putting the cart before the horse. That's the ridiculous unfairness of many Christian arguments and what irks me is the fact that adults should have known better than to go on such an argument.
Cheers,
Sir Greneknight, Knight of the Order of the Round Table.
