After some time, this fellow with whom I had been debating took the time to post a lengthy reply. Although I definitely take issue with most of his statements, I believe I will allow him to have the last word, as I know that there is really no point to arguing this further. Here is his reply:
Quote:Dear “Escaping”,
I have a little time and as promised will respond to some of your comments from the Tribune website. The first is a theological one regarding your statement in paragraph 4, where you took issue with my assessment of mankind as the enemy of God: “mankind, supposedly made in Gods image, is God’s enemy.” One only has to start with Genesis three at the fall of man, where death is announced, follow that through to the flood of Noah, and continue through to the end with the judgments of Revelation to see that man is in a heap of trouble. We are given the reason for this in Romans 8:7, which proclaims unsaved people are God’s enemies. “Natural man”, or man devoid of the Spirit of God, cannot understand the things of God and has no desire for them. That is why Jesus said that unless a man is “born from above”, he cannot see the kingdom of God . Yes, man was made in God’s image, but that image is badly marred because of sin. That was the reason for the coming of Christ, whose mission is to restore that image through faith in Him.
Secondly, you spend a great deal of time in the 5th paragraph attempting to show a contradiction in the Bible regarding the issue of faith a works – where Christ teaches that men are judged entirely on their actions whereas Paul teaches that they are people are saved by grace alone. This is a common error, even among some Christians, who fail to see that faith and works are inseparable. In other words, because of the condition of man (as described partially above), as the enemy of God and “spiritually dead” (Ephesians 2), there is no possible way that works can justify before God. James points out, however, that good works are necessary to VERIFY whether a faith is genuine or false. That is what Jesus meant when separating the sheep and the goat by their deed, for in Matthew 7 he teaches that we can know false teachers “BY THEIR FRUITS”. Let me put this as plain as possible – any person who claims to be a Christian, and still follows after their carnal lusts and sinful lifestyle, is lying. Christianity is SPIRITUAL in nature, and when the Spirit of God has entered a person’s life, that life is altered and will produce good works.
You mention in the next paragraph that Dawkins “does not have inarguable proof of exactly how life began” and admit that no scientist does. This is the whole crux of my argument, for it is the very root of the issue. That is what I meant by the “atheist in the bar” argument. Not to insult drunk atheists, but to point out the fact that it is not an issue of intelligence. I love science. I spent my younger years reading everything scientific, and wondered how some of the other kids in school had such a rough time getting good grades. I took it very seriously. One of the things I remember about science is that unless something can be observed and then repeated, it is not proven science. Louis Pasteur’s experiment regarding spontaneous generation is proven science. In other words, life does not spontaneously arise from non-living matter. If one starts with non-living matter, or even nothing, than all we will have, even after millions of year, is non-living matter. Evolutionists skip the issue of origin and jump right into the changes of millions of years. I cannot do that. Life is too complex and mysterious, and will always remain so to carnal science, because it is SPRITUAL in nature. As I was typing this paragraph, my daughter brought me her science homework which had on it this statement: “Life formed, probably in the seas, and migrated onto land.” That is NOT science, it is conjecture. It cannot be proven, never will be. The Bible, on the other hand, is a documented account. We can chose to believe Genesis 1 or not, but it is just as “scientific”, and actually more so, than the “swirling cloud of dust particles” that formed the universe.
Lastly, you close with a lengthy article about the Crusades, Thirty Years War, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and a few other historical issues that you see cast Christianity in a bad light. It should be noted that in my first argument I go into detail about the sinful condition of man. It stands to reason that evil men, when given the opportunity, will take the Christian religion and use it to increase their influence and power if they can. That is exactly what they did. The Crusades were not a mission work of the biblical Christian church, they were a power grab of an apostate “pope”. By that time in history evil men had corrupted the church for political power. That is why they called it the “Dark Ages”. It was not only the Muslims and Jews who suffered, but any sincere Christian who bucked the system did so at the risk of being burned alive. They did their best to stamp out any vestige of the Bible, condemning and killing any who might try to translate it into the language of the people. Protestant nations had to fight for survival, as Rome sent their armies and armadas to snuff out any freedom of conscience that might arise from biblical principles. This went on for centuries until Rome was forced, by political pressure, to lay of the murder and mayhem.
Luther is an enigma in Protestant circles when it comes to the issues you brought up. On the one side, he put his own life on the line for freedom of conscience, yet was reluctant to allow that same for others, such as the Jews. He was known for his hot responses, and many times he apologized for going over the top. To boil it down, Luther as well as Calvin were men of their times, and did not understand the concept of separation of church and state. Much more can be said, but the birth pangs of religious freedom (from which all other Western freedoms arise) took centuries to finally reach full bloom. You did not answer my question regarding what the world would be like without Jesus Christ – let’s just say it probably would not have changed much. Pagans, cannibals, widow-burnings, and so forth would continue in societies.
Briefly, you refer to Hitler as claiming some form of Christianity. Let me say this kindly, that no person in their right mind would accept the notion that he was a Christian in any sense of the word. He was simply one of many in a long line evil men who used Christianity for his own purposes when it was to his advantage.
Finally, the issue of slavery. One of the world’s big bugaboos about the Bible is that somehow it condoned slavery. No, like many other issues, it regulated it, as Christ said, “because of the hardness of men’s hearts”. The Bible says in Malachi that God “hates divorce”. Yet large portions of the law are given over to regulate it. The same with polygamy and other vices. Slavery was not condemned outright, as it existed in the Roman system, but when push came to shove slavery lost. The reason it lost was because the New Testament teaches a certain equality of value in men, which was incompatible with the system. Yes, Paul commanded slaves to be loyal and respectful to their masters and work hard. His purpose was not to condone the evil of slavery, but to promote the superior ethics of Christianity. Christianity is not a political religion, but a spiritual one. Jesus told Pilate at his trial that His kingdom was not of this world, or servants would fight for Him. Slavery still existed in Western culture because evil men could make money off of it, but it was CHRISTIANS such as William Wilberforce, who spent their lives fighting it.
This is a lengthy response, and I probably will not have time to continue responses like this. I am doing so partly because I sense that you do enjoy the discussion and desire to learn from it. My real concern is that you face the issue of the shortness of life and the fact of death, and that you contemplate the consequences if your system is wrong. Finally, boil it all down to this – life does not come from non life. The Complex NEVER arises from nothing. We have been left a written revelation that explains how this occurred, and are offered the chance to accept it or reject it. My hope is that you reconsider your rejection of Christianity and look at it again, remembering the the unscientific premises of evolution and atheism have no answer for what is really important, the origin of life.
... Escaping Delusion ...
"Dance like it hurts, Love like you need money, Work when people are watching." - Dogbert
