Thoughts and questions from God Delusion

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, and glad to hear it. A good sense of humor goes a long way in this context I think. And not taking oneself too seriously.

Social lubricant...and everybody loves a little lube..amiright?

I get it. I was making the point that most of the atheists (or apparent atheists) I've met didn't seem like the type who were capable of or interested in a serious, civil conversation on the topic of the existence of god(s).

This probably isn't any more true of atheists than it is of theists.

Not at all, but which part are you calling bullshit? Basing belief on experience or the claim that my mother's tumor disappeared after prayer? That of course is something that could be "scientifically" verified. You may not believe me just because I said it happened; frankly I would be skeptical of someone else who said the same thing and I'm a believer in God and prayer. However, I assume you would agree that this is something that one could have evidence for. Like if you were the physician (who understood the ultrasound or whatever imaging technique was used), recognized the unmistakeable image of the tumor, and then re-imaged the patient a day or week or whatever later, and found no trace of the tumor. I'm not saying this would convince anyone that her prayer "worked" or that God exists, only that there was a tumor, and now there isn't. My point is that for my mom and others who have such experiences, the experience is strong (subjective) evidence for the existence of God.

No, of course you wouldn't be saying that(because then you'd be obliged to substantiate it), but if you weren't, one would be at a loss as to explain why you brought it up. Guess I get to call bullshit again, and as per the above, RE:civil discourse...well, this sort of thing verges on breaking that right off the bat.

BTW, this spontaneous regression is so common that it now has a name and people are seriously studying it. See the Wikipedia article. Here's a quote from it: " In a carefully designed study on mammography it was found that 22% of all breast cancer cases underwent spontaneous regression." (There is a reference for that stat, which refers to a peer-reviewed medical journal.)

Sure does, and no connection to any god or any prayer has been found.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying this is evidence for anything other than that this kind of thing happens sometimes (not usually, but often enough to be recognized as "real".) I suspect most doctors and scientists don't try to hypothesize how or why,

Actually they do, you linked me the wiki..check the references?

since there is likely no known physical mechanism by which it could be explained. Of course ignorance is no threat to science or naturalism, etc. Quite the contrary, it is its raison d'etre.

So maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but if you say, "bullshit that could never happen", I would reply, "sure it can, and does".

Or maybe you're weaseling around after having blatant bullshit called blatant bullshit. Civil discourse becomes yet another victim of conversational dishonesty.

Actually it is. I'm here because TGD challenged my thinking sufficiently to reexamine the question. I am coming at it from the theist side (as opposed to the first time I came at it, which was from the atheist side), but I am coming at it, and taking it seriously.

LOL, another "former atheist"? Or did you simply examine this from the "atheist prospective" fed to you...by theists.....?

Well, atheism is not superstition, I guess technically it's not anything positive at all, only the denial of theism. But atheists generally do have positive philosophies (naturalism, materialism, humanism, pick-an-ism.; "get your -isms here!" ) about the nature of the universe and our place in it, and they certainly influence public policy. Your statement is assuming that atheism is true and theism is false. If that is the case, I agree with you. However, for those who consider this an open question and a personal decision, then I don't see the difference. It's forcing one's personal views on others either way.

No assumptions required. We looked, we didn't find what we should have, end of. It's not my fault that your fairy tales ended up being fairy tales, now is it? I didn;t have to make any assumptions, no one else had to make any assumptions on the matter either. The truly depressing bit, is that every-time we went looking we actually -did- assume to that we would find god..or corroboration of gods fairy tales.

Agreed. Some parents certainly are not fit. As a parent though, I would want my government to err on the side of giving parents the benefit of the doubt when the call is close, which I think the U.S. government currently does, more or less. I think the logical implications of Dawkins' suggestion of somehow prohibiting parents from raising children in a religious context go way past that though, into tyranny. I mean why not just go the whole way and do the Brave New World thing? Would be more efficient to just take reproduction out of the hands of people altogether. Just harvest some eggs from willing (or not) women and genetically engineer the citizens needed for the ideal society. Screw the parents. (More hyperbole there. )

I really don't know who's proposing anything of the sort, if you could point out such a person I can lend you my pitchfork (i get to keep the torch) and we can mob them together.

Roight. That's what I meant by saying it was a rhetorical device. But that also opens the door for atheist shit-wits to storm the houses of religious families (at least metaphorically/politically, if not literally)

Oh, not literally? Then I don't give a shit.

and demand the kids be liberated. I can imagine that some of them think The Brave New World sounds pretty good, and wouldn't consider it hyperbole.

Which ones?

True, but who is going to be the judge? You? I sure wouldn't want that job, and as I said, if someone's going to judge me as a father, they better have a damn good reason to take my babies away from me if they try.

LOL, no, no not me. I suppose I could be the judge if i'd put the extra couple of years in, but it's not my bag.

Really, even if God is a terrible evil forced on weak-minded children, is it worse than taking kids away from their parents? Certainly and in every case?

Under those circumstances.......yes?

Math. e^i*pi + 1 = 0, therefore God exists. Q.E.Dizzle! (Joking of course!!!)

Ah, a torturer of small children...hehehehehehe. Like you already.