Thanks for your time esquilax.
But I also need to point out that Adam and Eve needed to sin themselves; to sin means 'to miss the mark', and that mark is the standard that God set by his own character (Rom 3:23)- therefore God cannot sin and therefore deny himself! (2 Tim 2:13). In order to obtain any knowledge of God's goodness, Adam and Eve needed to sin themselves... and, of course, God had a plan to save them, and us. What we can be sure about is that seventy years of sin and suffering is merely like a mother giving birth- the labour is painful, but that's nothing stopping her from the joy of having a son (cp. John 16:21-22).
In summary: if God was to bypass this step the plan would fail.
Before you ask 'why did God sit there for 120 years while his workers were in danger!?' we just need to consider the difference now between the boss, and between God; God had foreknowledge, and knew that the faithful eight would remain so after 120 years of wickedness- but after any longer? I'm guessing they would have caved in, but we aren't told.
1) You can't truly appreciate orgasms until you have one
2) to my memory, no one was born with their 'dick' in a deep-fryer, but I'm sure that if they were, they wouldn't appreciate how good it is to have it out of there until they actually remove it!
Quote: Why couldn't he just have created them with knowledge of good and evil, and the ability to die, then? Why trick them and then phrase it all as a punishment after the fact? Why the elaborate and pointless ruse just so god could act all pissy?When you die, you will be resurrected and judged on the last day, some will live, and others will die (Dan 12:3- note that 'contempt' does not refer to hell, but abhorrence, according to the original hebrew). My point being that it is true that Adam and Eve were cursed- but what of it? remember that with God mortality and death often (but not always) mean very little... what DOES matter though is the judgement which comes after we are raised, and THAT depends on our choices: we will either be put to death forever (THAT'S the punishment- and it's our choice) or we will be given everlasting life (reward). For all we know, Adam and Eve could be rewarded...
But I also need to point out that Adam and Eve needed to sin themselves; to sin means 'to miss the mark', and that mark is the standard that God set by his own character (Rom 3:23)- therefore God cannot sin and therefore deny himself! (2 Tim 2:13). In order to obtain any knowledge of God's goodness, Adam and Eve needed to sin themselves... and, of course, God had a plan to save them, and us. What we can be sure about is that seventy years of sin and suffering is merely like a mother giving birth- the labour is painful, but that's nothing stopping her from the joy of having a son (cp. John 16:21-22).
Quote:If god didn't want the former setup, then why did he create it like that in the first place? What does an omnipotent creator being stand to gain from all this subterfuge and roundabout methods?. God was omnipotent, yes... but why should that mean that everything he does has to prove it? We can yell, but do we yell all the time? No, because yelling wouldn't be very smart in many situations. If God only exists to prove that he exists- then that's very sad. As for the first bit of your question I'll ask you to take a step back and consider everything that's been said already : 1) God wanted Adam and Eve to know and appreciate him (which is by knowing evil, so as to appreciate good) 2) Adam and Eve had to do the sin themselves for this to happen.
In summary: if God was to bypass this step the plan would fail.
Quote:No, I'm talking about the whole bible, since you could produce verses, and interpretations thereof, to justify pretty much anything you wanted to.You can take verses out of context, with the wrong interpretation (e.g. 'key' can have many meanings...). Some verses by themselves can have ambiguous meaning, but that's when other passages in the bible can shed some light on the matter (for example, the verses trinitarians present can actually be either Jesus' deity, OR God manifestation. How do we know which one to decide on? We turn to the rest of the bible- and when we see that 'no man has seen God at any time [God=theos: the deity; not one of his angels]' (1 Jn 4:12) we would realise that if Christ was was God, then the bible would contradict itself, because many saw Christ!). It will take us almost a lifetime to sort out the truth from the lies that have accumulated over time, so, if you want me to explain the whole truth of the whole bible in every detail you'll just need to wait a looong time... but I'm working on it.
Quote:"Why you gotta make me hit you?" is it? Genocide was justified, because god gave everyone the time to obey his every whim, and that damnable free will he gave them made them sentient beings who don't have to do that? Seriously?God gave man life so that they could worship him in spirit and truth. If you reject the deal, it's only fair that you should die. Now imagine you're the owner of an apple farm, and all the workers were meant to work for a certain time (their mortal life), and their wages for doing so was eternal life. Now if a worker quits, but still helps himself to all your apples for the rest of his life, most bosses would get security and remove him from the land! But what God did was give that man a lifetime to take back his decision, and continue working for God (that's like most atheists today who try to be good without God). Now another worker comes along; he quits, but instead of simply helping himself to your apples, he starts trashing the farm, burning your crops... and endangers your other workers! The best thing to do is to get them out! Likewise, in certain situations, God has to intervene with death.
Before you ask 'why did God sit there for 120 years while his workers were in danger!?' we just need to consider the difference now between the boss, and between God; God had foreknowledge, and knew that the faithful eight would remain so after 120 years of wickedness- but after any longer? I'm guessing they would have caved in, but we aren't told.
Quote:Because you can't know good without knowing evil!That's mixing two situations.
Which is like insisting that a man cannot know that orgasms are pleasurable until he drops his dick into a deep fryer.
1) You can't truly appreciate orgasms until you have one
2) to my memory, no one was born with their 'dick' in a deep-fryer, but I'm sure that if they were, they wouldn't appreciate how good it is to have it out of there until they actually remove it!
I'm kinda busy and don't have much time for these forums, so if you respond to this post, don't expect me to reply immediately- but I will try to get back to you sometime.
