An original argument against creationism

[Angrboda]

If Yahweh is what the bible says he is then we can be sure that there will come a time when he will wipe away all the tears from our eyes, and there will be no more death, or mourning, or crying or pain anymore (Rev 21:4) and all the earth will know him (Hab 2:14).

"And there will be no sickness, and no death..."




Though Wilford Brimley will occasionally come along and touch your privates. This is otherwise known as "the little death of many suns."

[Nerd]

Another questions comes, then: why hasn't god intervened already? Why would he allow evil and suffering at all? What's the benefit of that?

Because there is no god.

[jap23]

Which of course raises a very valid counter question: if god wanted to "give" us both good and evil, why did he bind up all knowledge of those two subjects in the fruit of that extra special tree, and then bar his creations from eating from it and imbibing that knowledge?

Death comes through sin (Rom 6:23)- therefore Adam and Eve had to sin for this to be at all possible. Was this a mistake? No- God put the tree right in the middle of the garden next to the tree of life. Every time Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life, the tree of knowledge would've been tempting them ALL the time, for ALL their everlasting life... the fact was, they had to eat from the tree. It was God's plan.
It could have just been Adam and Eve just sitting there for eternity- doing the same things like robots with no gratitude towards God, and no comprehension of his goodness... but instead God decided to give them free choice, a chance to understanding his goodness for themselves, and to accept him for themselves.

depends on the bible verses you choose to believe, I suppose

I believe in the whole bible... but I guess you're talking about the bible-verses where God 'sins', such as by the flood and hell? What we forget about the flood was that the world had 120 years to repent. In accordance with Jer 18:7-10, God may have either 'taken back' the threat, or allowed them to come aboard the Ark... on the other hand, 'Hell' is simply a mistake, in summary: the Hebrew word translated 'hell' is 'sheol', which simply means grave, and that is the same for 'Hades' in greek. 'Gehenna' in greek is talking about the valley of hinnom where the trash was burnt- so I guess that is a bit of disgraceful place to die. The idea of a supernatural place of eternal torment is a scare tactic that can't be supported by the bible very well at all.

and on how sure of salvation you are

Rom 8:27 to the end (of ch8) illustrates that theres nothing stopping us from salvation but ourselves.
But I guess you're talking about the truth of God's promise. Given that the vast majority of his promises have already been fulfilled- I think the odds for the kingdom are fairly high! Consider Israel- it was predicted to have been restored (Ezek 38:8, for example) which paves the way for the kingdom to finally come (Zech 14). What we can expect is a massive attack on Israel when 2/3rd will die (Zech 13:8) and 1/2 will be taken captive (Zech 14:1-2) (general information: Ezek 38 & 39; Zech 14 & 13:8)- that's when God will intervene. If Israel is completely conquered, you win; and I'll probably be atheist. (EDIT: but that's not the only reason I'd become an atheist- I'm here to be open)

Another questions comes, then: why hasn't god intervened already? Why would he allow evil and suffering at all? What's the benefit of that?

That question could have been asked at any time in history, right up to the point that he would have had to intervene as soon as it all started! I bet if that was the case, God will then have been criticised because of His submission to our demands- why then should we regard Him if He submitted to us in that way? Also, the fact that the kingdom isn't here yet means we still a chance. If God intervened right at the beginning, it would just be Adam and Eve... and they'd have seen no reason to be grateful whatsoever.
[/quote]"Why would he allow this at all?" The benefit of that is explained in my previous post- once we know evil, we can fully appreciate good when it finally all comes.

[Esquilax]

Death comes through sin (Rom 6:23)- therefore Adam and Eve had to sin for this to be at all possible. Was this a mistake? No- God put the tree right in the middle of the garden next to the tree of life. Every time Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life, the tree of knowledge would've been tempting them ALL the time, for ALL their everlasting life... the fact was, they had to eat from the tree. It was God's plan.

Why couldn't he just have created them with knowledge of good and evil, and the ability to die, then? Why trick them and then phrase it all as a punishment after the fact? Why the elaborate and pointless ruse just so god could act all pissy?

It could have just been Adam and Eve just sitting there for eternity- doing the same things like robots with no gratitude towards God, and no comprehension of his goodness... but instead God decided to give them free choice, a chance to understanding his goodness for themselves, and to accept him for themselves.

If god didn't want the former setup, then why did he create it like that in the first place? What does an omnipotent creator being stand to gain from all this subterfuge and roundabout methods?

I believe in the whole bible... but I guess you're talking about the bible-verses where God 'sins', such as by the flood and hell?

No, I'm talking about the whole bible, since you could produce verses, and interpretations thereof, to justify pretty much anything you wanted to.

What we forget about the flood was that the world had 120 years to repent.

"Why you gotta make me hit you?" is it? Genocide was justified, because god gave everyone the time to obey his every whim, and that damnable free will he gave them made them sentient beings who don't have to do that? Seriously?

[Ryantology]

Another questions comes, then: why hasn't god intervened already? Why would he allow evil and suffering at all? What's the benefit of that?

Because you can't know good without knowing evil!

Which is like insisting that a man cannot know that orgasms are pleasurable until he drops his dick into a deep fryer.

[Esquilax]

Another questions comes, then: why hasn't god intervened already? Why would he allow evil and suffering at all? What's the benefit of that?

Because you can't know good without knowing evil!

Which is like insisting that a man cannot know that orgasms are pleasurable until he drops his dick into a deep fryer.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I think that experiencing the latter would certainly make you more appreciative of the time, before the complete ruination of your genitals, when you could experience the former.

[jap23]

Thanks for your time esquilax.

Why couldn't he just have created them with knowledge of good and evil, and the ability to die, then? Why trick them and then phrase it all as a punishment after the fact? Why the elaborate and pointless ruse just so god could act all pissy?

When you die, you will be resurrected and judged on the last day, some will live, and others will die (Dan 12:3- note that 'contempt' does not refer to hell, but abhorrence, according to the original hebrew). My point being that it is true that Adam and Eve were cursed- but what of it? remember that with God mortality and death often (but not always) mean very little... what DOES matter though is the judgement which comes after we are raised, and THAT depends on our choices: we will either be put to death forever (THAT'S the punishment- and it's our choice) or we will be given everlasting life (reward). For all we know, Adam and Eve could be rewarded...
But I also need to point out that Adam and Eve needed to sin themselves; to sin means 'to miss the mark', and that mark is the standard that God set by his own character (Rom 3:23)- therefore God cannot sin and therefore deny himself! (2 Tim 2:13). In order to obtain any knowledge of God's goodness, Adam and Eve needed to sin themselves... and, of course, God had a plan to save them, and us. What we can be sure about is that seventy years of sin and suffering is merely like a mother giving birth- the labour is painful, but that's nothing stopping her from the joy of having a son (cp. John 16:21-22).

If god didn't want the former setup, then why did he create it like that in the first place? What does an omnipotent creator being stand to gain from all this subterfuge and roundabout methods?

. God was omnipotent, yes... but why should that mean that everything he does has to prove it? We can yell, but do we yell all the time? No, because yelling wouldn't be very smart in many situations. If God only exists to prove that he exists- then that's very sad. As for the first bit of your question I'll ask you to take a step back and consider everything that's been said already : 1) God wanted Adam and Eve to know and appreciate him (which is by knowing evil, so as to appreciate good) 2) Adam and Eve had to do the sin themselves for this to happen.
In summary: if God was to bypass this step the plan would fail.

No, I'm talking about the whole bible, since you could produce verses, and interpretations thereof, to justify pretty much anything you wanted to.

You can take verses out of context, with the wrong interpretation (e.g. 'key' can have many meanings...). Some verses by themselves can have ambiguous meaning, but that's when other passages in the bible can shed some light on the matter (for example, the verses trinitarians present can actually be either Jesus' deity, OR God manifestation. How do we know which one to decide on? We turn to the rest of the bible- and when we see that 'no man has seen God at any time [God=theos: the deity; not one of his angels]' (1 Jn 4:12) we would realise that if Christ was was God, then the bible would contradict itself, because many saw Christ!). It will take us almost a lifetime to sort out the truth from the lies that have accumulated over time, so, if you want me to explain the whole truth of the whole bible in every detail you'll just need to wait a looong time... but I'm working on it.

"Why you gotta make me hit you?" is it? Genocide was justified, because god gave everyone the time to obey his every whim, and that damnable free will he gave them made them sentient beings who don't have to do that? Seriously?

God gave man life so that they could worship him in spirit and truth. If you reject the deal, it's only fair that you should die. Now imagine you're the owner of an apple farm, and all the workers were meant to work for a certain time (their mortal life), and their wages for doing so was eternal life. Now if a worker quits, but still helps himself to all your apples for the rest of his life, most bosses would get security and remove him from the land! But what God did was give that man a lifetime to take back his decision, and continue working for God (that's like most atheists today who try to be good without God). Now another worker comes along; he quits, but instead of simply helping himself to your apples, he starts trashing the farm, burning your crops... and endangers your other workers! The best thing to do is to get them out! Likewise, in certain situations, God has to intervene with death.
Before you ask 'why did God sit there for 120 years while his workers were in danger!?' we just need to consider the difference now between the boss, and between God; God had foreknowledge, and knew that the faithful eight would remain so after 120 years of wickedness- but after any longer? I'm guessing they would have caved in, but we aren't told.

Because you can't know good without knowing evil!

Which is like insisting that a man cannot know that orgasms are pleasurable until he drops his dick into a deep fryer.

That's mixing two situations.
1) You can't truly appreciate orgasms until you have one
2) to my memory, no one was born with their 'dick' in a deep-fryer, but I'm sure that if they were, they wouldn't appreciate how good it is to have it out of there until they actually remove it!

[i win you lose.com]

So whats the purpose of the universe? I dont want a definition from wikipedia or google, i just want to know why it exists. atheists say theres a purpose for everything... so whats the purpose of the universe?

[justin]

Sarcasm

hey did you get banned? your name is marked out. just wondering why that was.

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So whats the purpose of the universe? I dont want a definition from wikipedia or google, i just want to know why it exists. atheists say theres a purpose for everything... so whats the purpose of the universe?

Well i define it as what you make it. Well for life that is. as far as the universe Why does there need to be purpose? What`s the bibles definition of this purpose? worship? hmm seems pointless to me. by the way atheists don`t a SET of belief. some may believe and purpose some may not.

[i win you lose.com]

Sarcasm

hey did you get banned? your name is marked out. just wondering why that was.

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So whats the purpose of the universe? I dont want a definition from wikipedia or google, i just want to know why it exists. atheists say theres a purpose for everything... so whats the purpose of the universe?

Well i define it as what you make it. Well for life that is. as far as the universe Why does there need to be purpose? What`s the bibles definition of this purpose? worship? hmm seems pointless to me. by the way atheists don`t a SET of belief. some may believe and purpose some may not.

Im not askin what the bible says... The really famous atheists out there say ther is a reason for everything in existence.... But they dont give a reason for the universe... so what is the necessity of the universe?