(March 26, 2013 at 4:33 pm)jstrodel Wrote: What if God uses suffering to teach people things, the same way that a father teaches his children. God loves his children, but he uses suffering to teach them things. What if the scale is different from your fearful and politically colorized view of the nature of suffering? What if there was something that was even higher than you, even able to see a thing or two that you could not.
Please enlighten me how being grounded from your xbox relates in any way to the suffering that man endures?
Please.
Also, if there was something that was even higher than me, I would hope that it would prevent what was going to happen to me if it was benevolent in any way. I don't care if the ladybug on the ground below me needs to learn that walking around where humans walk is a bad idea--knowing it can be squished at any moment, I would run over, and scoop it up. Not let it get horribly maimed by a shoe.
Let's say that "he" could see ahead of me a few steps. I was still born with a disease, I suffered that disease my entire life. Why does disease even exist if he's benevolent? Population control? hm. No, that's not it: he supposedly made everyone live for hundreds of years and set up the system originally for never dying right? So as 'punishment' from this benevolent god, he introduced disease, thorns, pain, etc.
Your answer is going to be that my disease exists because it makes me who I am, am I right? By going through it, I am who I am and that's totally worth it? Because now I'm a worthwhile spirit friend for your god? Even if I'd kept my faith, I'm still going to get to the heaven and call WTF because WTF. I had to go through all of this so that I can be a useful companion to God for all time? And he thinks that I'll get over knowing for all eternity that those I love are in hell?
Please.
If he doesn't mean to keep people in hell forever and ever, he wouldn't make his official stance that they're going to hell for eternity.
Otherwise, again, what an asshole. Cuz we totally thought he was serious. And it's this seriousness that keeps me from believing in him. So there's a paradox right there.
You know, today my dad called out of the blue to teach me a revelation he'd come up with the day before which is quite relevant to this conversation.
conversation with my dad today Wrote:Self entitled: When Miracles arent enough
Jesus performed miracles, including raising Lazarus from the dead, exorcising demons, healing peoples' bodies; yet still when they didn't understand Jesus and his motivations, they would fall away.
With regards to Peter, he was told by jesus that jesus was going to be crucified on the night they camped in Githsemene. Peter said he'd fight and go to jail with him, as he thought Jesus was going to be their Messiah on earth. Jesus said, "you'll deny me three times before the night is over". Then Peter cut off someone's ear when they tried to arrest jesus. Something something, Peter denied Jesus 3 times that night. Then somehow became useful for Christ in being broken, having your dreams dashed and replaced with the true spirit that god wills. Peter thought Jesus was going to take over the kingdom by force with violence, but Jesus died on the cross. Peter became a broken man, but then became strong in his resolve and became useful to god in his ability to witness to others.
You have to have that second aspect of faith in order to be a complete citizen of the kingdom of heaven
Christ performed all those spiritual tribulations too
to the point where he was tested, and sweated blood which is hard to do i understand
so the lord isnt asking you to do anything he wouldn't do
so in summary
when miracles arent enough: the point is you become strongest when you are broken and put through tests and trials
even if you saw all the miracles, heaven was clear as crystals it wouldn't be enough god has designed you to bring forth the best characteristics in you through testing and trials
so what do you think about that?
What I think is, that God's original design did not have disease or pain or death. Unless he did design us to have that after all, knowing Adam and Eve would choose that apple. So what I think is this: He's an asshole.
[I opted out of answering my dad, since he posed the question as assuming that I believe in god]
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.