Rhythm
Since you're actually attempting to make a case for what you believe I'll respond to your post.
In order for us sentient beings to exist, the information required to produce that result had to be present when the universe began to exist, it couldn't be added later.
Lets start with interaction first. When it comes to mindless lifeless forces we observe interacting we notice they only interact when acted upon, they don't initiate their own action because they don't have volitional will to decide to do something. Sentient beings like humans for instance can initiate actions that subsequently lead to reactions. Since lifeless mindless forces don't initiate action or reaction how did the series of actions and reactions we observe in the universe ever start to begin with? But I digress. To your point, you actually unwittingly make my point for me. If you start with A and B (a lot of A's and B's) and they mindlessly without plan or purpose interact you will probably get every combination of A and B possible. But all you could hope to get is combinations of A and B because thats what you started with. You couldn't hope to produce out of just A and B the rest of the alphabet or believe the combination of A and B would produce a novel.
Why would mindless forces that don't care about planets, stars or humans have such information?
Because they are at best mindless lifeless forces that don't care if planets exist, if stars exist, if galaxies exist or least of all if sentient life exists. How would mindless lifeless forces acquire the information content needed to cause such things to exist? Its the same reason when we drop a box of 200 toothpicks from 50 feet and it produces a random unpredictable pattern, because the mindless forces that interact don't care if they produce a knowable symetrical pattern. If I dropped the box of toothpicks and they produced clear as a bell the writing 'Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country' would you in response say well why wouldn't they spell out such a message?
You claim the universe we observe is what you'd expect from mindless lifeless forces that didn't intend life or sentience to exist, would you expect such forces to create life and sentience?
What are your other expectations from mindless forces? Could mindless forces given enough time and chance produce the Mona Lisa? Or the works of Shakespeare? Or a super computer? Why not? If we had no other explanation for such things and the creator of them wasn't in sight why wouldn't it according to you be credible that mindless forces create things of arguably less sophistication than a universe with its laws of nature and sentient beings?
So if we came to a planet in another solar system and found bulidings and vehicles and roads and such but no living beings you'd conclude those things must have occurred by natural forces that didn't intend their existence? I look around my office and see an airconditioner a couple of laptops and a telephone but I don't see the creator of those things anywhere in site, I guess I'll assume that mindless forces that didn't intent to create such things caused them, because in our everyday life mindless forces are always going about creating useful things. I opened up the computer and viola no creator was inside...guess mindless forces must have caused it to exist.
So in other words in the world of atheist logic, a universe that appears to have been intentionally designed to cause and support life is actually evidence that mindless forces without plan or intent caused such because if God caused it God would have done so in a on going miraculous manner that woudn't require the conditions needed to support life. That story will go over fine with your fellow atheists. Not sure how convincing it would be to impartial folks not committed to either view point.
Since you're actually attempting to make a case for what you believe I'll respond to your post.
In order for us sentient beings to exist, the information required to produce that result had to be present when the universe began to exist, it couldn't be added later.
Quote:Hardly, interaction is a very useful way of "creating" novel patterns and information. We see it at play all the time. Take an A, add a B, You have AB, Same A, add the AB - AAB/or B add AB BAB - we can rearrange all of this and continue to cram them together producing a massive array of new and novel patterns that didn't exist before their interaction with nothing but an A and a B. We can do the same with just the A, or just the B.
Lets start with interaction first. When it comes to mindless lifeless forces we observe interacting we notice they only interact when acted upon, they don't initiate their own action because they don't have volitional will to decide to do something. Sentient beings like humans for instance can initiate actions that subsequently lead to reactions. Since lifeless mindless forces don't initiate action or reaction how did the series of actions and reactions we observe in the universe ever start to begin with? But I digress. To your point, you actually unwittingly make my point for me. If you start with A and B (a lot of A's and B's) and they mindlessly without plan or purpose interact you will probably get every combination of A and B possible. But all you could hope to get is combinations of A and B because thats what you started with. You couldn't hope to produce out of just A and B the rest of the alphabet or believe the combination of A and B would produce a novel.
Why would mindless forces that don't care about planets, stars or humans have such information?
Quote:Why wouldn't they?
Because they are at best mindless lifeless forces that don't care if planets exist, if stars exist, if galaxies exist or least of all if sentient life exists. How would mindless lifeless forces acquire the information content needed to cause such things to exist? Its the same reason when we drop a box of 200 toothpicks from 50 feet and it produces a random unpredictable pattern, because the mindless forces that interact don't care if they produce a knowable symetrical pattern. If I dropped the box of toothpicks and they produced clear as a bell the writing 'Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country' would you in response say well why wouldn't they spell out such a message?
You claim the universe we observe is what you'd expect from mindless lifeless forces that didn't intend life or sentience to exist, would you expect such forces to create life and sentience?
Quote:It is, they did, and yes, I would.
What are your other expectations from mindless forces? Could mindless forces given enough time and chance produce the Mona Lisa? Or the works of Shakespeare? Or a super computer? Why not? If we had no other explanation for such things and the creator of them wasn't in sight why wouldn't it according to you be credible that mindless forces create things of arguably less sophistication than a universe with its laws of nature and sentient beings?
Quote:The basis, firstly, that we are here and we can't find your sentient force (not for lack of looking either).
So if we came to a planet in another solar system and found bulidings and vehicles and roads and such but no living beings you'd conclude those things must have occurred by natural forces that didn't intend their existence? I look around my office and see an airconditioner a couple of laptops and a telephone but I don't see the creator of those things anywhere in site, I guess I'll assume that mindless forces that didn't intent to create such things caused them, because in our everyday life mindless forces are always going about creating useful things. I opened up the computer and viola no creator was inside...guess mindless forces must have caused it to exist.
Quote:Why would it have to be created to support life at all? Why would life need any supporting (perhaps you didn't realize this, but the very notion that life needs supporting lands you firmly in the territory of no god - just biology) ? In any case, it isn't a matter of "if"....but, if that's all you';re going for, you're merely attempting to create a scenario in which a universe created by god and a universe not created by god are entirely similar in every observable way. You're travelling uphill in the hopes of reaching me somewhere near the summit. Seeing as I don't have to invoke an unknown, un-evidenced, unproven - and ergo baseless-assertion...I think I'll stick with -no god-.
So in other words in the world of atheist logic, a universe that appears to have been intentionally designed to cause and support life is actually evidence that mindless forces without plan or intent caused such because if God caused it God would have done so in a on going miraculous manner that woudn't require the conditions needed to support life. That story will go over fine with your fellow atheists. Not sure how convincing it would be to impartial folks not committed to either view point.
