I'm using a lot of philosophy here, so there probably isn't a scripture verse for some of my conclusions.
Assuming Christian morality, if one does "the Good", they actually are building a relationship with God. In Psalm 136, David assures us that "...he is good...", so by being moral/good, there is a very real bond that forms between that person and God. This bond I call "faith", and is the agent of salvation (even though most people use faith to mean "knowledge of the existence of God"). The more the giving of one's self to the Good, the stronger the bond. Here, we have imperfect faith. My bond to God can always be strengthened, as can anyone else's. This imperfect faith is because we're not giving our whole selves to God; We only give part. Everyone only gives part. But part is all that is necessary for salvation.
Agnostic has a possibility (knowledge does not grant salvation), but if one firmly believes that there is no sort of god, the entire demeanor of the person is different. Really, this is a case of how much pride is there. I don't see it being possible with how that knowledge would then affect how one acts (we're not to love "mankind", but individuals). If "atheist" defines their person, I strongly doubt it. If they simply do not see the need for any god yet, if the proof was there and they simply did not notice it, they might be able to be lumped in the same category as the agnostics. Really, this totally varies. There are plenty of Christians who had all the right knowledge and all the right actions, but they do it for recognition or money, or they think they earned their way into heaven, or something, and these people are far worse than any atheist in my eyes. They don't deny his existence out loud, they exploit the trust of the faithful. The same pride problem applies for other religions as well. If their religion defines them and they will not separate from it, what can we do? If it does not, then that bond to God is completely possible.
After resurrection, the faith of those believers will instantly be perfected because they will be in the presence of God. The issue here is that I don't think many have the ability to let go of pride, and pride refuses the giving of one's whole self. This causes big problems with one's salvation. Including Christians and non-Christians, the "better-than-thou" syndrome could thwart any sort of measurement. This, I think, is our greatest sin. Christians will go to hell because they have pride that "they were right" that they won't let go. Atheists will have pride in saying that God was unjust. Other religions will attach themselves to their own gods. Selfishness will be the fall of many. We all have selfishness and pride now in some way or another, but as long as it can be shed, there is hope.
So, in short, doing the Good is accepting God with action, even if the concept of "God" is foreign. However, many actions can resemble the Good, and are not, and those don't count. Also, pride can and will destroy the bond, effectively having the person damn themselves.
Purgatory is with the Catholics and Greek Orthodox. They both have 2 Maccabees (along with 1 Maccabees, of course), a book not included in Protestant bibles. This is the only real passage they get it from that is clearly speaking of a purgatorial realm. I go to a private catholic college, and they gave me some other bible passages, but I think they're reading into the text like a rorschach test. Anyway, although I don't think the place exists personally, I'll assume it exists for the time being.
Purgatory is basically hell, but the main difference being that in Purgatory there is hope to get out. Purgatory is temporary, while hell is eternal. There is a difference in how the suffering works too: in hell, the suffering is caused by the individual. In purgatory, the reason for suffering is the individual, but it's actually the presence of God burning the impurity out. Apparently, after a while, it works, and perfect virtue will soon be had. Once it does, the suffering ceases and the person now is numbered among the saints in heaven. The reason for Purgatory in the first place is to cause just suffering for the evils done during life that were not experienced. So, to a Catholic, if Hitler magically made the cut and didn't immediately plunge into hell, Hitler would spend a really, really, really long time in purgatory. The nun who feeds the poor and raises orphans, however, may not even go.
/Catholic Tex
I believe a crazy thing called soul sleep. Basically, the soul needs the body for all perceptions, including the perception of time. Death is most similar to anesthesia and you wake up at Resurrection when given a new body. You never stop existing, you just don't do... anything. I get bible verses from Ecclesiastes 9, but there's not enough to make it sound. I have a lot of philosophy to surround it.
Darkstar Wrote:Does this mean that if you are a morally upright atheist you will not go to hell, or is accepting god still the main thing? (or is accepting god synonymous with being morally upright, from your interpretation).
Assuming Christian morality, if one does "the Good", they actually are building a relationship with God. In Psalm 136, David assures us that "...he is good...", so by being moral/good, there is a very real bond that forms between that person and God. This bond I call "faith", and is the agent of salvation (even though most people use faith to mean "knowledge of the existence of God"). The more the giving of one's self to the Good, the stronger the bond. Here, we have imperfect faith. My bond to God can always be strengthened, as can anyone else's. This imperfect faith is because we're not giving our whole selves to God; We only give part. Everyone only gives part. But part is all that is necessary for salvation.
Agnostic has a possibility (knowledge does not grant salvation), but if one firmly believes that there is no sort of god, the entire demeanor of the person is different. Really, this is a case of how much pride is there. I don't see it being possible with how that knowledge would then affect how one acts (we're not to love "mankind", but individuals). If "atheist" defines their person, I strongly doubt it. If they simply do not see the need for any god yet, if the proof was there and they simply did not notice it, they might be able to be lumped in the same category as the agnostics. Really, this totally varies. There are plenty of Christians who had all the right knowledge and all the right actions, but they do it for recognition or money, or they think they earned their way into heaven, or something, and these people are far worse than any atheist in my eyes. They don't deny his existence out loud, they exploit the trust of the faithful. The same pride problem applies for other religions as well. If their religion defines them and they will not separate from it, what can we do? If it does not, then that bond to God is completely possible.
After resurrection, the faith of those believers will instantly be perfected because they will be in the presence of God. The issue here is that I don't think many have the ability to let go of pride, and pride refuses the giving of one's whole self. This causes big problems with one's salvation. Including Christians and non-Christians, the "better-than-thou" syndrome could thwart any sort of measurement. This, I think, is our greatest sin. Christians will go to hell because they have pride that "they were right" that they won't let go. Atheists will have pride in saying that God was unjust. Other religions will attach themselves to their own gods. Selfishness will be the fall of many. We all have selfishness and pride now in some way or another, but as long as it can be shed, there is hope.
So, in short, doing the Good is accepting God with action, even if the concept of "God" is foreign. However, many actions can resemble the Good, and are not, and those don't count. Also, pride can and will destroy the bond, effectively having the person damn themselves.
Darkstar Wrote:Also, I am curious as to the scriptural validity of purgatory. When I was a theist, I was told that it was a kind of in-between pace where the people who didn't have totally pure souls (or something like that) were cleansed of their sins and eventually sent to heaven. Some failed and went to hell, but only the worst went straight there. Is any such place mentioned in the bible?
Purgatory is with the Catholics and Greek Orthodox. They both have 2 Maccabees (along with 1 Maccabees, of course), a book not included in Protestant bibles. This is the only real passage they get it from that is clearly speaking of a purgatorial realm. I go to a private catholic college, and they gave me some other bible passages, but I think they're reading into the text like a rorschach test. Anyway, although I don't think the place exists personally, I'll assume it exists for the time being.
Purgatory is basically hell, but the main difference being that in Purgatory there is hope to get out. Purgatory is temporary, while hell is eternal. There is a difference in how the suffering works too: in hell, the suffering is caused by the individual. In purgatory, the reason for suffering is the individual, but it's actually the presence of God burning the impurity out. Apparently, after a while, it works, and perfect virtue will soon be had. Once it does, the suffering ceases and the person now is numbered among the saints in heaven. The reason for Purgatory in the first place is to cause just suffering for the evils done during life that were not experienced. So, to a Catholic, if Hitler magically made the cut and didn't immediately plunge into hell, Hitler would spend a really, really, really long time in purgatory. The nun who feeds the poor and raises orphans, however, may not even go.
/Catholic Tex
I believe a crazy thing called soul sleep. Basically, the soul needs the body for all perceptions, including the perception of time. Death is most similar to anesthesia and you wake up at Resurrection when given a new body. You never stop existing, you just don't do... anything. I get bible verses from Ecclesiastes 9, but there's not enough to make it sound. I have a lot of philosophy to surround it.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.