"I think you'll find a great many christians who disagree with you on this count."
That's why I said, "even though most people use faith to mean 'knowledge of the existence of God'". Please read what you quote. Thanks.
"In what way do you imagine that the entire demeanor of a person who firmly believes here is no sort of god would be different from anyone else - or that this difference would be due to their firm belief that no sort of god existed?"
This is what I was trying to point out with pride. If God is omniscient and omnibeneficent like we're assuming, God is right. On everything. How could he not be? If people refuse to give up their own ideas (which would then be false), their own ways of life (which would not be best), or their allegiance (which would not be respectful), or something else disrespects God, he can't force these out of them without taking away their freedom to choose. He lets them go.
"This is starting to sound less like an exploration on who might find themselves in heaven or hell...and more like an attempt to create novel definitions for things like faith in order to launch a polemic against pride (wondering why you perceive pride as such a dirty thing anyway)."
If you don't understand the definition of faith, how can you do any exploration of salvation? Your insults are always the least thought out...
"If doing "the good" means accepting god, I'm going to have to start seriously considering doing "the bad" - aren't I?"
"The Bad" doesn't exist. You can do things that are not part of "the Good", but those don't play a role in salvation.
"Nevertheless, what I see here is a situation in which a belief in god, the "revealed words of god" or even any concept of god is far less than necessary to achieve the cosmic carrot."
Not far less. You have to follow his morality. It helps to know what God has said about morality, because those with the knowledge have a helping hand while those that don't have the knowledge are left to what little we have naturally to figure it out. Also note, this is the bare minimum and highly unlikely way. The sure way is faith, baptism, and Eucharist. If done by the person in all honesty and humbleness, if they still have faith at death, their salvation is ensured.
"Seeing as how doing "the good" is entirely more beneficial to both myself and my fellow man than any belief personally held would ever be (consider, you've set up a situation in which doing the good might grant entry in and of itself - but belief is no such key) - I see no reason to waste any time I could spend doing "the good" expressing or contemplating any belief. Seems to me that my time would be better spent enhancing the lives of the poor fuckers down here on the prison planet that you're so keen to escape."
Part of the Good is how you treat God. If you have no theologically minded thoughts or are hostile against any sort of being with considerable power/authority, you lack necessary parts of the Good. These, depending on your willingness to change, are variables to the equation. Also, no matter what people tell you, there is no actual support for a "we live in heaven forever". Christians will stay here, too. New Jerusalem comes down, not we go up. Resurrection means physical bodies.
"On the other hand - if your assessment were true, I don't know that I'd want to continue doing "the good" because I don't want to spend eternity (or even a moment) with your god. Tough position to be in, I'm sure you'll appreciate that?"
And here is that statement of pride that I have been speaking about. I don't know how great your pride really is. Perhaps it's just insecurity on your position? I can't read your mind. I do know that generally, people that make this comment have empathy for the evils the see. You incorrectly blame my God for a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that you will never change your mind. You could potentially stick to your resentment and walk away with the others, but I don't know if you will.
That's why I said, "even though most people use faith to mean 'knowledge of the existence of God'". Please read what you quote. Thanks.
"In what way do you imagine that the entire demeanor of a person who firmly believes here is no sort of god would be different from anyone else - or that this difference would be due to their firm belief that no sort of god existed?"
This is what I was trying to point out with pride. If God is omniscient and omnibeneficent like we're assuming, God is right. On everything. How could he not be? If people refuse to give up their own ideas (which would then be false), their own ways of life (which would not be best), or their allegiance (which would not be respectful), or something else disrespects God, he can't force these out of them without taking away their freedom to choose. He lets them go.
"This is starting to sound less like an exploration on who might find themselves in heaven or hell...and more like an attempt to create novel definitions for things like faith in order to launch a polemic against pride (wondering why you perceive pride as such a dirty thing anyway)."
If you don't understand the definition of faith, how can you do any exploration of salvation? Your insults are always the least thought out...
"If doing "the good" means accepting god, I'm going to have to start seriously considering doing "the bad" - aren't I?"
"The Bad" doesn't exist. You can do things that are not part of "the Good", but those don't play a role in salvation.
"Nevertheless, what I see here is a situation in which a belief in god, the "revealed words of god" or even any concept of god is far less than necessary to achieve the cosmic carrot."
Not far less. You have to follow his morality. It helps to know what God has said about morality, because those with the knowledge have a helping hand while those that don't have the knowledge are left to what little we have naturally to figure it out. Also note, this is the bare minimum and highly unlikely way. The sure way is faith, baptism, and Eucharist. If done by the person in all honesty and humbleness, if they still have faith at death, their salvation is ensured.
"Seeing as how doing "the good" is entirely more beneficial to both myself and my fellow man than any belief personally held would ever be (consider, you've set up a situation in which doing the good might grant entry in and of itself - but belief is no such key) - I see no reason to waste any time I could spend doing "the good" expressing or contemplating any belief. Seems to me that my time would be better spent enhancing the lives of the poor fuckers down here on the prison planet that you're so keen to escape."
Part of the Good is how you treat God. If you have no theologically minded thoughts or are hostile against any sort of being with considerable power/authority, you lack necessary parts of the Good. These, depending on your willingness to change, are variables to the equation. Also, no matter what people tell you, there is no actual support for a "we live in heaven forever". Christians will stay here, too. New Jerusalem comes down, not we go up. Resurrection means physical bodies.
"On the other hand - if your assessment were true, I don't know that I'd want to continue doing "the good" because I don't want to spend eternity (or even a moment) with your god. Tough position to be in, I'm sure you'll appreciate that?"
And here is that statement of pride that I have been speaking about. I don't know how great your pride really is. Perhaps it's just insecurity on your position? I can't read your mind. I do know that generally, people that make this comment have empathy for the evils the see. You incorrectly blame my God for a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that you will never change your mind. You could potentially stick to your resentment and walk away with the others, but I don't know if you will.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
