(July 13, 2013 at 1:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: This does not need to be the first universe for this to be true. The first universe would have to attribute its existence to its cause, which would still have to be uncaused. If such cause could sustain itself infinitely before the creation of that universe, why couldn't it do so after? Nothing can be infinite on one end and not on the other. Provable fact.go ahead and prove it. you're making an absolute statement, go ahead, prove it.
Quote:Ah, but there's a problem. You see, I made the statement that there was nothing of a certain brand. To prove it, I would have to physically show you the nothingness, which is impossible, because I'm stating a concept. The only way that what I said could be false is if you proved that there was something with no beginning and an end. All I can say are negatives.These "causes" sound very human with very human ideas of cooperation and authority. Also, go ahead and prove that, keeping in mind again, you're proving an absolute statement.
For instance, numbers are infinite, and they have neither beginning nor end. I am asserting a negative. I can only be wrong if anybody provided a positive.
Quote: First of all, the uncaused cause of the universe would have to be ultimate truth because it caused everything to exist, which is all we know to be true.while i'm thrilled that you brought up another one of your Provable fact this time i'm completely lost as to how it applies to your already sufficiently crazy theory.
There cannot be two ultimate truths. "The Earth orbits the Sun" and "The Sun orbits the Earth" cannot both be true in pertinence to the Earth's orbit.
However, "The Earth is round" and "The Earth has a curved surface" are both ultimately true in pertinence to the Earth's geometrical shape. That is because they say the same thing.
If these two ultimate causes both existed, they would both have to be ultimately true, which means they would both have to act identically to one another. If there is any contradiction between them, neither would be true, because the truth can't be self-contradictory.
If there were more than one uncaused cause, it would be as good as one. There is no reason to believe there are more than one.
i'm not even going to bother doing your homework for you this time and list all the baseless assumptions you've made. Partly for the fear of bringing up more baseless assumptions.
Quote:Of all things that exist, there are a few that can make the conscious decision whether or not to do something. These things are living, intelligent beings, like humans. The being, force, cause, whatever of the universe made a conscious decision to bring it into being.
Evidence?
The force that began the universe always existed, since there was nothing to bring it into being.
The causation of the universe was not made necessary, since there was nothing to make it necessary.
As far as we know (I am willing to take correction on this one, it is redundant anyway), there are no more universes that are being caused.
THEREFORE, the causation of the universe was a free choice, a conscious decision, and since only intelligent beings can make conscious decisions, the cause of the universe must be an intelligent being.