A new understanding to an old premise

[Drich]

Read what I said again. The implication is that god was indeed aware of what would happen, and given that he made it occur, he's ultimately responsible for the knock-on consequences.

Sorry about that I assumed you understood God did indeed take responsiablity, with the atonement offered on the cross.

If your concern is making "honest choices" then your theory serves you poorly: by definition one cannot make an honest choice when the factors actually at play are being concealed.

Only if God were concealing something. Again God is into revelation for all of A/S/K. You are Blind. The world is unknown to you because you have not asked to see it. This is not the same as God concealing the world from you. For God to have concealed the world you would have to have spent a life time doing what you have been told to do (A/S/K) and God decided to keep you in the Dark. Which is not the Case. You do not have because you have not A/S/Ked.

And by definition, any god that would deliberately obscure key factors in a decision making process isn't interested in honest choices.

I do not disagree.

Whilst at the same time making it more difficult to do so. Textbook hypocrisy.

If you will not simply A/S/K then how can you speak to how difficult it really is? In this conversation I believe I am the only one who can speak to how difficult obtaining a measure of the Holy Spirit is... And I say it is not difficult. All I had to do is A/S/K and I got more than I knew to even ask for.

Not good choices, or even rational ones. What kind of message does your god intend to send, if he's endorsing important decisions made on the basis of incomplete information?

... That not having complete information is a choice in of itself. A Choice one must make for themselves.

Nothing in that sentence makes any sense. You're posing a scenario with two choices, one of which is not only objectively correct, but also subjectively and morally correct, and yet a selfish motive for taking that path is somehow less valid?

Ok let me try again. Let's say you want to marry a girl who is really good for you who loves you for you and is looking to help and support you and help you to provide the family you truly want. Now let say you were put into a room with two girls one who could do everything mentioned above, and the other would drag you through hell on earth. Here's the kicker you can only choose one, and you can only do so by sight, but it's dark and you can see to well. Do you choose anyway or do you ask someone to turn on a light? What if after you turn on the light and the two look identical? Do you choose anyway or do you try and seek out more information, by any means possiable? What if at first you do not get the response you are looking for? do you choose anyway? or do you keep trying? Remember marriage is till death do you part. So do you throw caution to the wind and make a 50/50 go at it or A/S/K till you find the one your looking for? If you choose not to be ignorant of who you marry, then how can you choose to be ignorant of your God?

And how do you know that we'd all default to the selfish option anyway?

Because there are only two options. Either we live for God or we live for self.

Doesn't your knowledge of god cause you to be a better, more charitable person?

One can be charitable and give for selfish reasons.

You've got the knowledge that hell exists, and yet I doubt you'd claim the sole reason you do what you do is to avoid it, to benefit yourself.

Actually as bad as Hell was. I was content in the knowledge that I knew I belonged there. (Even though I did not want to be there with every fiber of my being.) It is not the fear of Hell that fuels my desire, but the briefest of moments that I felt the full and complete Love of God as if I were one of those welcomed in. That is why 'we' Seek the "Well done my good and faithful servant enter into my Father's rest." welcome from Christ more than anything.

Is the asking for it really that much of a game changer?

It's not the asking, or the seeking or the knocking. It is the humility one must put on to do these things. even if it mean we must do this for the rest of our life, that is the key that unlocks the flood gates of Heaven's blessings. As soon as you give yourself over to God completely and freely (meaning with no honest expectation) God will be able to truly communicate with you.

'We' do not sit in silence muttering to ourselves as most of you tell yourselves. I am not one who is into waisting my time with crap that does not work. That is why I am here and not supporting one of the other 'religions' I looked into.

Isn't knowledge of your god supposed to inspire better actions, anyway?

Better than what? Didn't you just tell me 'we' don't all default to being selfish? What if I was a giving person/charitable, before I knew God? If I was then the only thing that would change is the reason why I do what I do. Not what I have always done.

If that's the case, why make rationality to begin with, and more importantly, why make it the most accurate way to discover the truth of everything else in the universe besides god?

Maybe Rationality is not the issue, but the pride in the idea than one can turn our rational onto any aspect of the universe 'including God' and unlock it's mysteries. If I were a Jelous God type I would say F-You Danny Mcbride, and your "Rational," you will come to me on your knees especially after all of the BS you put me and my boy through to forgive your sins.

Why create a tool that works wonderfully for everything except the most important question in the whole of reality? How is that not just a mean spirited trick?

Indeed, Now ask yourself who could benefit from such a trick?? Who could possiably benefit.. from such a trick... I don't know could it be??? Could it be SATAN?!?!?!

Actually church lady aside, the only the proud see a trick being played. The Humble see an easy path to follow. One that does not require social standing, education, membership in a exclusive club or anything like that. All one has to do is A/S/K, and God freely gives. All you have to do is be faithful to what you have been given and you will be given more. How easy can it be?

And how do you know god is so different from those earthly tyrants?

Do you want a bible verse? Hebrews tells us God will lay out whole lives out in deli thin slices to where nothing is hidden and we must give an account for all of it.

Someone can know the whole of a thing and still judge unjustly based on personal reasons and biases.

No one can know everything. They can not know your mind or the intentions of your heart. Hebrews 4 says all of that will be laid out and judged.

Complete knowledge doesn't necessarily entail that the correct actions will be taken based upon it.

Only if you believe there is a 'standard' greater than God. if there is one who created it, and wouldnt they be by definition God? and if the creator of that defination was God is the 'new' standard now greater than the creator who created it? why?

Now this is a red herring, because the idea that's being potentially transmitted in this case is not only very simple- there's a heaven- but is already being transmitted just in a less than convincing way. I'm not asking for the moon and the stars, just that one very simple concept be made self evident, rather than being related through the terrible means it's currently being told through.

Then A/S/K for something better. I did. I did not like church for a while and I A/S/K for a personal tutor and got one.

You say that, but hell is definitely an objectively bad choice, thereby making heaven, at the very least, the lesser of two evils. Or are you positing the idea that hell could be the preferable option?

For satan and those who openly follow him, yes. It is the better of two options.

But he'll drag you into a matrix- style pocket universe?

Again how do you know you did not beg to be here? To be given a second chance?

Except that heaven's supposed to be an eternal reward for good deeds, no?

No. Your thinking of Mormonism or Islam. Christians know they do not deserve Heaven. Heaven isn't really even the destination unless you catholic. It a relationship with God. to be welcomed home to be reunited with our father after wandering off with our inhearitance like the prodigal son did. 'Heaven' as majestic as it is made out to be is a distant second to the reason a Christian wants to go "Home." It is the boundless and eternal love and warmth of our God that we seek.

And hell's a punishment? At least, from your point of view, even the "separation from god" angle would be an unhappy ending for a person, no?

It depends on the person. Hell is only 'Hell' for those who want to be with God. I would think being forced to serve God for eternity would be a fate worse than Hell if one was eventually consumed by Hell fire as I understand it.

Why does a god that already knows the answer need to set up the game in the first place?

This question has been asked a lot and each time I answer I say: The "Game" is not for God's benefit. It is for our benefit. God knows what we would do if given enough rope. We simply need the space/place to be allowed to hang ourselves with it, in order to believe we would do such a thing. Which again is the point of this life/Matrix. So we could understand the natures our hearts. Again I believe we have been put in this "Matrix" because in the presents of the knowable Glory of God we are blinded and can not see our true natures. It is only after we are blind to God that we get to see our true natures/hearts. So again when in the presents of God we are all like we love you and we want to worship you, and when God's Glory is out of sight (for 70 or so years) we are like there is no God only man's rational/science. One last time, God's glory: Blindness in the matrix: At least for some of us.