One question for Christians

[Statler Waldorf]

It doesn't? "Sir, we have no reason to believe he murdered the subject, but we have no reason to doubt that he didn't either! Let's go with the latter, because I say so! All in favor say 'Yea'!" This is you, SW.

I see you still do not understand how all of this works, you’ll get there eventually. You claimed the flood account was impossible; I’ve refuted that claim, that’s all I intended to do. You’ve now tried to shift the goalposts; I am too savvy for that my friend.

And hypothesizing how abiogensis naturally occurred is much more thought-provoking than saying "Goddidit", every time, hands down.

Sounds like your opinion to me.

if you think they're wasting their time on these theories, then you need to give them a better one. But wait...you just say "Goddidit", and that's an argument from ignorance. Well excuse these scientists for trying their best not to be ignorant like the fools who spend 15 seconds to hypothesize a God instead. If you have proof that God exists, then perhaps you might have something worth bringing to the table, otherwise, you are wasting your breath on these men.

Concluding that God did something is not an argument from ignorance (asserting there must be a natural explanation for the origin of life that we just have not found yet is however); it’s an inference to the best explanation. Life cannot naturally come from non-life, that’s a basic law of biology.

How do you know there was an ark? You don't know that any more than I know there was a primordial soup, and but I don't need to hypothesize a God in order to come up with conditions for the soup. This god is carrying more baggage than the original spark of life! If you want to pin me with special pleading, you should stop doing it yourself, unless you're just fine proceeding in this manner. And if that's the case, then blaming me for something you yourself do is being hypocritical. Are you okay with being a hypocrite?

I am not engaging in special pleading, if scripture revealed to us that there was a primordial soup then I’d know there was one; however it reveals no such thing. It does reveal that there was an ark though.

As for the flood originating with Noah, you have no proof. Stop it.

Sure I do.

No one should ever reason from a story book, even if it claims to be real. Does that clarify my position any?

Sure, and I agree with it, however I am not reasoning from a story book, I am reasoning from the infallible revealed word of God. All other claims conform to its authority.

Hey, you said it, not me. That jump in logic was all you.

No, I believe Cody’s account is accurate; you’re the one asserting it was some sort of fabrication by Cody, without any evidence to support that position.

What, Smith wasn't a real person that made up fantastic stories? What the fuck am I taking on faith, exactly? If you try to pin that rot on me, then you'd better think about it real hard before you do.

Where did I say Smith wasn’t a real person? I said he wasn’t an accepted historical reference like Cody; true statement. What do you accept upon faith?...

- Your senses are generally reliable and accurately perceive reality
- You can trust your ability to reason
- Your memories accurately depict the past
- Future natural laws will resemble past natural laws

You cannot prove any of these things are true and yet you believe them, which means you’re accepting them upon faith. Without this faith commitment you’d be able to know nothing, so your entire view of reality is grounded in faith. Faith is the foundation for all reason.

I'm not going to explain away any of that. It's your claim, so it's your belief. I haven't accepted it as a belief, so the burden of proof is all on you to change my mind. You sure do try hard to shirk your responsibilities to your outrageous claims.

So are you conceding that there is evidence that supports the flood account that you cannot explain? I’ll take that concession.

Once again, I can't help voluntary ignorance. I'm not discussing these things with you.

This approach is almost always a sign that you cannot refute my position; demonstrate to me this isn’t the case here.

Oh, so attaching the word "creature" to someone is empirical evidence that such a thing has a creator, much like offspring has parents?

I never said it was; I was just pointing out the irony of you using that term. Life cannot naturally arise from non-life- we know this to be true; so life must have a supernatural creator.

Right, let's just make up insane theories about global floods and forget how that all affects the ecosystem. I'm no Marine Biologist, but it doesn't exactly take one to postulate that most everything, if not all things, would be dead in the water after such a catastrophe. So I assume you must think they had help from God to survive such an event, or their habitat needs were altered for this one time. Look, I understand that you think your God can do all things, but for those of us who don't believe in your god, we're going to keep to what seems more plausible.

There are marine biologists who believe in the global flood, so that point was off the mark. Yes, many animals would have died during the flood, and that’s sort of the point of the whole thing. Whether you believe in the omnipotence of God is irrelevant. Plausibility? Aren’t you the guy who entertains the statistical impossibility known as abiogenesis?

Special pleading then. Great. "I don't know how they did it, but it must have happened!" Sorry...no, that's an argument from ignorance. Or was it both?

You’re shifting the goalposts yet again; you claimed the flood account was impossible. In order to refute that claim I merely have to propose ways in which it is possible; I did that, therefore your claim has been refuted. Do you know how life arose from non-life by the way? Or do you merely know it must have happened? Keep in mind, you referenced nearly a dozen different theories without telling me which one actually happened. I am allowed to play by the same rules as you play by.

Right, right. For all the trillions of people that have walked the earth, only the couple dozen or so that you listed, not including those referenced in the Holy Babble, were documented as living beyond 200 and 300 years of age. How is that evidence that ALL of us should be living longer like them?

What? Where did I say that all of us should be living long lives like they did? Cultures agree; people used to live longer than they do today. I realize that makes no sense from an evolutionary perspective, but that just means perhaps it’s time to alter your perspective. As a side note, the assertion that there have been trillions of people on Earth is an absurd claim; people bury their dead and there’s no where near that many bodies buried.

No...that's not scientific. It's an idea based on how you think the aging process works.

No, it’s an idea based upon our scientific understanding of how the aging process works.

Assuming Noah was real, of course. However, I don't tell stories. Scientists can prove that Amino acids are real and that they can naturally form when under certain conditions. But, please, tell me more of these Fairy Tales that you are so taken with.

Science doesn’t deal with proof. Additionally, scientists cannot demonstrate that these amino acids piggy backed on crystals on a beach 4.5 billion years ago, and yet you seem to have no issue with such stories. It’s interesting you feel the need to apply two different sets of rules.

I own that book, FYI. So you compare something he wrote as a side-hobby to being of equal importance to his actual work? Who's making fallacious analogies now?

Where did I make that comparison? I was just making sure we were talking about the same guy.

Oh, forgive me for my ignorance, I suppose I forgot that part.

Forgiven.

So then what would have happened if the Angel hadn't stopped him?

…but the angel did stop him, so that’s a meaningless hypothetical.

This story, right here, is proof enough to show that your God's morals are fucked up.

According to whom? You?

The sinful nature God gave them. I can do this all day.

No, the sinful nature that was a result of Adam’s fall. I can too.

We do! You believe in fore-ordination, and I sure as fuck don't.

…because you were fore-ordained not to.

Oh, I see what you did there. You equated "vile things" to natural tendencies. Stop it.

So murder, cannibalism, infanticide, and rape are not vile since they are natural?

Special logic is a bitch.

I wouldn’t know, I prefer deduction.

I can fathom nothing. That immaterial enough for you? Why is everything so black and white with you?

I believe in the existence of truth; as do you.

It's not going to appeal to supernatural claims, meaning, it will never fill in the gaps with "Goddidit". You can do that all you want, but it will only stunt your intellectual growth.

…so the supernatural does not exist because there’s no evidence to suggest that it does and no evidence can have a supernatural explanation because the supernatural does not exist because there’s no evidence to suggest that it does because no evidence can have a supernatural explanation because the supernatural does not exist because there’s no evidence to suggest that it does and no evidence can have a supernatural explanation because the supernatural does not exist because there’s no evidence to suggest that it does because no evidence can have a supernatural explanation because the supernatural does not exist because there’s no evidence to suggest that it does and no evidence can have a supernatural explanation because the supernatural does not exist because there’s no evidence to suggest that it does because no evidence can have a supernatural explanation because the supernatural does not exist…..

Around and around we go!

How is the idea of one eternal god not also begging the question? Mormonism is wrong not because of its doctrines, but because it's made up!

No, I know that Mormonism is a fabrication because it’s internally logically inconsistent; this is not true of Orthodox Christianity.

They use special pleading the same way you do to make their religions seem logically consistent and coherent. You don't see it because you're too far in. I can talk all I want, but the only one in a position to help you right now with your delusions is yourself.

Let’s not stoop to that level; I could just as easily dismiss everything you believe as delusional as well, but that does not get us anywhere.

You keep spreading this shit all you want, but every atheist here, and even those not here, will tell you the same thing that I am.

How do you know who the atheists are here without first possessing a clear definition for the term “atheism”?

Are all of us wrong about our position?

No, a few on here know how the term is correctly defined.

Do you get to decide what we are, or do we?

Neither, the philosophical references do, and I agree with their definition. You’re the one asserting your definition is correct and theirs is wrong.

I mean...I don't exactly call you a Taoist, do I? That would be silly of me.

Yes, it would be silly of you because the philosophical references define my position as Reformed Christianity. That’s why I call myself that, if I believed in the legitimacy of the papacy I would no longer be justified in calling myself a Reformed Christian no matter how much I loved the title. Definitions matter.

I did, but you ignored the fact that I pointed out that those articles are a combination of outside, legitimate sources. Are you going to keep bugging me about this, or are you going to let it go? I don't agree with your ideas about Burden of Proof, and I never will. There, is that better? Now, if you ask me to prove your claims wrong or right anymore, I'm going to need to end this.

Naturalism and materialism are both positive claims, so therefore you now have the burden of proof according to your article; so prove that the natural universe is all that exists and prove that the material universe is all that exists. Good luck!

Wow Stat....SMH...I'm too drunk to respond to this now. Till the A.M. Sir, till the A.M...

Does this mean you’re actually sober in your other responses? Yikes.

I think I shouldn't have replied. In fact, I'm doubting whether or not I should keep replying. If anything, I need to scale this discussion down some with him. I need to take the Minimalist route.

The problem with Min (well one of the problems) is that he’s so old he doesn’t remember things accurately. He’s never tried to engage me in any such debate. I’d be more than willing to debate him, but it’ll never happen.

I'm starting to think that may be the ONLY way to deal with this rubbish. You can only argue that wheels are round for so long...ugh.

Stick your fingers in your ears and scream, “I can’t hear you!”? That’s what most people resort to when their view of reality is shaken to the core. By all means, do it; we all know what it means.

I challenged Waldork to produce all the scientific evidence for life beginning 6,000 years ago in the middle east. He vanished for months.

You actually tried to debate me? Now that is an outrageous claim.

What?!!! No!! I refuse to believe that, Waldorf is the chosen one. The trusted scribe of the elders. Surely if there were ever a truth-speaker, it is he.

Ask Min to link to the post he’s referring to, he won’t be able to. He’s all fluff which is why no theist on here takes him seriously. There are atheists who somewhat know what they’re talking about, and then there’s Min.

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree here Stat. Your take is that everything should be assumed to be true until proven false, and I think that one must not accept something as true until proven.

And as I have clearly pointed out to you numerous times you assume all sorts of things are true that you cannot prove are true. For some mysterious reason it’s fine and dandy when Texas Sailor does this, but it’s ridiculous when Christians do the same thing.

If it wasn't breeded into you at a younger age, I assume, that at some point you accepted that the bible was true. That was an assumption on your part. Now you seem to think that this assumption stands on equal footing as the default one shared by one that is not convinced.

There is no default position on such matters, you either assume the Bible is true a priori or you assume it is false a priori. You are no more neutral than I am.

You don't seem to have any idea as to whether you are thinking forward or backwards at this point. Your logic is so wildly absurd that even you would reject it if it were offered to support a Hindu-Bible. Yet, you continue to say things like this...Do you ever go back and read some of the things you write? Take out "Bible" in your rebuttals and input "The Lord of The Rings" ..It looks something like this:

Fallacious analogy in 3…2….1….

It’s not, but we’re not talking about merely assuming The Lord of the Rings is false; we’re talking about using arguments that rely upon the assumption that The Lord of the Rings is false in order to argue that the The Lord of The Rings is false, which IS begging the question.

In order for an analogy to actually prove anything it must first be….analogous. Yours is not even close.

1. Lord of the Rings never claims to be true, the Bible does.
2. A person can adhere to a neutral position concerning the veracity of the Lord of the Rings, they cannot in regards to the veracity of scripture.
3. The preconditions of intelligibility can be justified even if the Lord of the Rings is false, they cannot if scripture is false.
Cute but fallacious analogy. It’s sad if you actually thought that was a proper analogy, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re still drunk.

I know you wouldn't accept this as a sensical statement, yet you say things like this all the time. You sound a lil crazy sir.

Of course I wouldn’t accept it; it’s not analogous to why I accept scripture. If someone who believes that blue whales, mosquitos, bacteria, humans, and red woods are all “blood relatives”, nothing naturally expanded into everything, and who believes that life can naturally arise from non-life thinks I am the one who is a little crazy I am more than fine with that. I’d be a little worried if you approved of my beliefs to tell you the truth.

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Wow....Statler are you saying no matter the reason god can do anything he wants to us because he created us?????

The Potter has the right over the clay, Romans 9.