Women's Rights and Religion

[pineapplebunnybounce]

What's wrong with distributing rights as we see fit? Is it so much more nobler to accept rights without question? Like the bible, it doesn't believe in human rights, it condones slavery, for god's sakes. Are you going to sit around and say, well they have less value so they don't deserve these rights. That makes you kind of an asshole. Value is not needed in understanding rights. How much you're worth doesn't figure into whether you have rights.

Concepts can exist even if they cannot be true. The concept of god is a perfect example, the concept is always there, but if you really want to knock out the details you'll find that hey, this thing, it's so illogical it cannot exist. Same as the concept of utopia, the concept is almost coherent, but it's not logical.

Oh by the way, what you felt for your baby was hardwired by evolution. And you do not have an inalienable right to take care of her, if you commit some kind of crime, you'll be in prison and be denied this right. Because now her right to be safe takes over.

Pineapple, I hope I'm not coming off as attacking your view, I'm just trying to engage the points that you made. Your view is yours, and you are entitled to believe how you see fit.

Why not? I'm clearly attacking yours. Of course I am entitled to my views, why would I feel compelled to change it because a guy on the internet disagrees?

My main point is that real "rights" by actual definition cannot be redistributed. It is impossible to do so. You have a right to believe what you want. If some governing body votes as a majority that you no longer have that right, it doesn't change the fact that you still do. If a society decides that Jews need to be eradicated from the earth, that doesn't mean that Jews no longer have a right to life and liberty. It means men have put them in the place of God to decide who lives and dies, and end up committing atrocities unimaginable against life and truth.

No no no, your original point was that this right is given by god and is demonstrated by his dying for us. To which I countered that you were talking about value (paying with god's life), which is not needed when talking about rights.

But anyway, here you once again say that it's ok for god to decide who lives or dies. Well .... no, human rights shouldn't be violated, even by god. Thank god god doesn't exist though.

Rights don't come from the bible, the right to life and liberty still existed for the humans that lived before the bible was even written, just as the rights of Americans existed just the same before the Constitution was written to protect them. The right of human kind to life, liberty and the pursuit happiness is a truth that is held universally to be self-evident.

Alright, agreed.

I wholeheartedly disagree that the bible condones slavery and ignores human rights, I'd be interested in reading some commentary on that. I read a common thread of freedom from the slavery and addiction of sin, and that humanity at its core is sacred and worth upholding and protecting at all costs.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

I'm not sure why it is so morally repugnant to suggest that people have essential worth, and are more that that sum of our parts, and that we are made to love and be loved.

I wasn't opposed to the the idea that humans have "essential worth" (although as it so happens I do not agree that all humans have some kind of inherent worth), I opposed to using value or worth to determine human rights. That's the capitalism model, whoever is worth more gets more. That's not how human rights work.

When I hold by newborn, should I remind myself that it is really just a bag of guts, and a needy inconvenience that needs its disgusting diaper changed way too often?

Personally, I'm afraid of babies. But when I see a baby, I see something that against many odds (I know them but it's a long list) is born healthy and happy and I know that many have come before this baby to allow for this birth to happens, I know that if this baby were born mere 30 years ago, it would have to face much more problems than it does now, I know that this being that we regard as perfect came from generations and generations that if any of them had died, this baby wouldn't be here. If a dinosaur hadn't sneezed, as Dawkins puts it, we would all not be here. And I know that this baby will age and grow old and die and I know that it is made from atoms of life that had grown old and died. That is a beauty in itself.

We must be very careful here. When we drop the sanctity of life and trade it in for material evolution and nothing else, we walk down a very treacherous slope that other societies have gone down. Unfortunately, the ones that can't protect themselves, like infants and the elderly are the first to go, followed by other inconvenient undesirables. Take a look at Africa, Syria, Albania, and of course 1940's Germany and Poland.

Are we talking about eugenics? Eugenics isn't an argument of evolution, it's an argument of equal rights, which I have never said I was opposed to. So I'm not sure what you're trying to accuse me of.

When we debunk everything we shouldn't file a grievance with God and complain that there is no wonder or beauty left in the world. Truth exist, regardless of our legislation or sales of it, as do rights. We can't reallocate them any more than we can reallocate gravity.

Truth is that the bible is fake. You can't change that just like you can't change gravity. Truth is that evolution is real, you can't change that just like you can't change gravity.

I don't complain that there's no wonder or beauty, if I were to complain it wouldn't be to a nonexistent god. [/quote]