Women's Rights and Religion

[FiniteImmortal]

[quote='FiniteImmortal' pid='549189' dateline='1385360362']

Pineapple, I hope I'm not coming off as attacking your view, I'm just trying to engage the points that you made. Your view is yours, and you are entitled to believe how you see fit.

Why not? I'm clearly attacking yours. Of course I am entitled to my views, why would I feel compelled to change it because a guy on the internet disagrees?

Wow, hostile much? Not trying to change your views, you will believe them forever and nothing can ever change that. This internet guy is merely offering a counter-perspective to other thinking individuals who might offer intelligent discourse.

My main point is that real "rights" by actual definition cannot be redistributed. It is impossible to do so. You have a right to believe what you want. If some governing body votes as a majority that you no longer have that right, it doesn't change the fact that you still do. If a society decides that Jews need to be eradicated from the earth, that doesn't mean that Jews no longer have a right to life and liberty. It means men have put them in the place of God to decide who lives and dies, and end up committing atrocities unimaginable against life and truth.

No no no, your original point was that this right is given by god and is demonstrated by his dying for us. To which I countered that you were talking about value (paying with god's life), which is not needed when talking about rights.

But anyway, here you once again say that it's ok for god to decide who lives or dies. Well .... no, human rights shouldn't be violated, even by god. Thank god god doesn't exist though.

Actually, God does decide who lives and dies, he breathed life into you, and it will leave one day when he calls you back, we all will. Being born is a death sentence. You pass a moral pronouncement that it is "wrong" and utterly immoral for God to decide who lives and dies, but when a pregnant woman decides who lives and who dies, it is her god-given right, err, I mean voted-in right.

Rights don't come from the bible, the right to life and liberty still existed for the humans that lived before the bible was even written, just as the rights of Americans existed just the same before the Constitution was written to protect them. The right of human kind to life, liberty and the pursuit happiness is a truth that is held universally to be self-evident.

Alright, agreed.

I wholeheartedly disagree that the bible condones slavery and ignores human rights, I'd be interested in reading some commentary on that. I read a common thread of freedom from the slavery and addiction of sin, and that humanity at its core is sacred and worth upholding and protecting at all costs.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Wow, New living translation; thoroughly twisted by Catholic hacks. An utter abortion contrived form the equally absurd The Living Bible. If you have a barf bag handy, read Roman 13, its epic. If you would like accurate context, look at a manuscript that isn't wholly painted with blatant crap, and any scholar worth anything cringes at the mention of NLT. Try KJV:
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Servants have always existed in the world, not the same as slavery. We are all servants to something, most of America is servant to US Bank, and Visa. We weren't captured in a net and drug off, we voluntarily checked in to our servitude.

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)[quote]
NLT is so poetic huh? Pure rubbish. KJV: Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

Any difference in tone? Guess which version came first, and can be traced back through the centuries to the first early manuscripts? You guys love to dig up the most aborted, magled turd or a version, like anyone drink us that drivel. I guess some do, bummer for them. Counterfeits everywhere. Bottom line, people in all walks of life and all situations can do their best to succeed. As Abraham Lincoln said, what ever you are; be a good one.
[quote]I'm not sure why it is so morally repugnant to suggest that people have essential worth, and are more that that sum of our parts, and that we are made to love and be loved.

I wasn't opposed to the the idea that humans have "essential worth" (although as it so happens I do not agree that all humans have some kind of inherent worth), I opposed to using value or worth to determine human rights. That's the capitalism model, whoever is worth more gets more. That's not how human rights work.

You are confusing social stature having anything to do with the essential worth God esteems for all mankind. So in your intuition and feeling, you decide who has essential worth and who doesn't? Newsflash, that's not essential worth, that attributed worth. And again, it cannot exist apart from a transcendent framework, it cannot exist in a purely material world. We don't value our kids based on how fast they run, or how good of drawers they are, or how good at checkers they are. They are infinitely valuable and have untold essential worth to God, and to parents that aren't jacked up.

When I hold by newborn, should I remind myself that it is really just a bag of guts, and a needy inconvenience that needs its disgusting diaper changed way too often?

Personally, I'm afraid of babies. But when I see a baby, I see something that against many odds (I know them but it's a long list) is born healthy and happy and I know that many have come before this baby to allow for this birth to happens, I know that if this baby were born mere 30 years ago, it would have to face much more problems than it does now, I know that this being that we regard as perfect came from generations and generations that if any of them had died, this baby wouldn't be here. If a dinosaur hadn't sneezed, as Dawkins puts it, we would all not be here. And I know that this baby will age and grow old and die and I know that it is made from atoms of life that had grown old and died. That is a beauty in itself.

I'm sorry you are afraid of babies. They can be vicious; Charlie bit my finger and it is still hurting.

We must be very careful here. When we drop the sanctity of life and trade it in for material evolution and nothing else, we walk down a very treacherous slope that other societies have gone down. Unfortunately, the ones that can't protect themselves, like infants and the elderly are the first to go, followed by other inconvenient undesirables. Take a look at Africa, Syria, Albania, and of course 1940's Germany and Poland.

Are we talking about eugenics? Eugenics isn't an argument of evolution, it's an argument of equal rights, which I have never said I was opposed to. So I'm not sure what you're trying to accuse me of.

What I am saying, is when Evolution is the prime backbone of a societies' values, eugenics comes into play. Human rights are trampled for "the greater good" and men with short mustaches wreak havoc. When we adopt a new societal value based on nothing other than evolutionary biology, we mustn't cry foul when we reap the extrapolated metaphysical outworkings; ie., unbridled bloodshed. I fear a world where the checks and balances of life's sanctity is removed and exchanged for a morality firmly planted with it's feet in mid-air.

When we debunk everything we shouldn't file a grievance with God and complain that there is no wonder or beauty left in the world. Truth exist, regardless of our legislation or sales of it, as do rights. We can't reallocate them any more than we can reallocate gravity.

Truth is that the bible is fake. You can't change that just like you can't change gravity. Truth is that evolution is real, you can't change that just like you can't change gravity.

So even the most esteemed secular scholars from Oxford and Harvard are buying into that silly old book? Most of recorded human history, is contained therein, you don't have to believe everything you read, but to blatantly call the bible "fake" is a bit childish and exposes your mis-understanding of top-level secular scholarship..

I don't complain that there's no wonder or beauty, if I were to complain it wouldn't be to a nonexistent god.

One day, when this facade of a non-moral construct erodes and collapsible under the weight of its "new morality", as did our Roman ancestor's, complaining will fall on deaf ears.[/quote]