Rant against anti-atheist agnostics.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well it's theories that don't follow there information, but instead try to guess at a sub plot isn't it.
I think is always healthy to question. In this case, it's the concept that's being misrepresented as something potentially bad when it was devised as the opposite. I get the objection. I see it as a gross misrepresentation.

"Their information" is that they hold to the ransom theory Frodo. I didn't coin the term, I didn't decide which of the many models they would declare to be an article of their faith. I didn't have a say in what information they would use to reach that conclusion, and I have done nothing but relay their position. I have not interpreted that position at all, so I could not misinterpret it, let alone grossly so. The interpretation is their own (based upon those two verses I linked) - my opinion of that interpretation- that it is vile, immoral, etc -is mine-.

I'm not arguing that their position is "potentially bad" when it is devised as the opposite(wtf that's supposed to mean)...but that it is "actually bad" when simply accepted -as is- (and yes, yours as well..in fact..all vicarious redemption schemes - and all of them for the same reasons).

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Michael, you've made mention about the willingness of the subject as though it modified the situation. I don't think that it does. I think that this, like your invocation of moral influence, is window dressing. If someone volunteered to be executed in the stead of a convicted murderer sentenced to die and we went with it - would that be moral, ethical, or just....would you allow it, and would it have some redemptive effect or ameliorating influence on said convicted murderer?

Approaching this from a different angle (so that neither of us has to argue -for- killing anyone regardless of what it is they've done) suppose that I were a genius inventor, and I've been tinkering in my basement these last few years and have come up with a two seat time machine. We both hop on, I dial it back to the crucifixion. Would you be willing to help me kidnap jesus in order to save him from the cross (and yes, potentially from himself, his own suicidal intentions)? Suppose that I weren't a genius inventor, but that I worked at the suicide hotline and you were an ems first responder for the metro police. I get a call from an immigrant named Jesus - says he's going to kill himself -suicide by cop- as an example to those around him. I call you. What's the proper course of action from that point forward?
(I can come up with hundreds of these, if you'd like different examples)

Also, you need to add the substitutionary model to the list of redemptive schemes you hold to- as you just described it to a T. So now its sub, victory, and influence.

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For MA

That actually sounds kind of reasonable.

But potentially not very just, daddy's loving arms may be wrapping themselves around someone who deserves to be there a hell of a long time - if anyone deserves to be there at all, eh? Reasonable, I'd say no, understandable based on human empathy and familial bonds and our willingness to bend or break any and every rule in service to our closest kin......sure.