(June 26, 2010 at 9:49 am)Caecilian Wrote: The use of stock figures as mouthpieces for religious/ spiritual teachings and prophecies is incredibly common. Its a way of giving weight and authenticity to what is being said.
For example, theres an entire genre of Ancient Egyptian literature called Sebayt, which translates roughly as 'ethical teachings'. Some prominent examples are The Maxims of Ptahhotep and The Instruction of Amenemope. Did Ptahhotep or Amenemope exist? It doesn't really matter. As they appear in the texts they are literary devices- mythical teachers who act as mouthpieces for wise sayings that would almost certainly be already familiar to the reader. Thats how the literary conventions of Sebayt worked.
A more recent example is the figure of Merlin. Mediaeval writers used 'Merlin' as a device for giving authenticity to their prophetic texts- thus for example the 'Prophecies of Merlin' found in Geoffery of Monmouth. Link here for anyone who is interested.
The ancient jews used similar devices- Moses, David and Elijah are all stock figures of the type that I've described. Their 'biographies' in the bible are riddled with anachronisms, and are incredibly formulaic. But thats just the point. They're mythical figures like Ptahhotep and Merlin, whose function it is to convey the values and wisdom of the jewish people to future generations. The anachronisms are irrelevant- they exist as figures for the time that the bible was written down- many centuries after their alleged existence. And the formulae are intentional- formulas gives power to myth.
And jesus? He's a similar sort of figure. At least thats what Thompson argues in The Messiah Myth. And I'm strongly inclined to agree.
Many of his putative sayings, and much of his 'biography', is clearly 'borrowed' from other sources, notably the 'biography' and teachings of Elijah. Theres no evidence outside of the bible for his existence. There is evidence that early christians either hadn't heard of him at all (e.g. Theophilus), or viewed him as a powerful spirit rather than as a god and/or person (e.g. the author of Revelations). So his being a literary device is at least plausible, especially in the context of the Ancient Near East, where such devices were common.
Or at least: its way more plausible than the theory that he actually existed. Now thats not the strongest position, I'm afraid. Not by a long way.
You espouse a handy framework for not coming to terms with the historicity of any person you want from 'religious/spiritual teachings and prophecies', I give you that, and if it convinces you, well, fine. But in the case of Christ, more plausible in my opinion? No.
One thing I would say is that the New Testament isn't a bunch of 'ethical teachings' so it doesn't need a 'stock figure as a mouthpiece'. The gospels claim to be historical narrative about a person who lived, ate, drank, slept, wept, bled, died (and supposedly physically resurrected), in particular places at particular times.
An example of one event in this narrative is Peter's confession of Christ (Mark 8:27-29pp -- Matthew 16:13-16; Luke 9:18-20... use http://biblewebapp.com/study/ if you wish), which happens as follows:
Code:
Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, ``Who do people say I am?''
They replied, ``Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.''
``But what about you?'' he asked. ``Who do you say I am?''
Peter answered, ``You are the Christ.''I find the point you make about Theophilus (not the poster here, or the guy in Luke 1:1-4 even) answered by this confession. If he was being laughed at for being an ``oily one/Christian'' he would have definitely held to the above confession, like Peter - equating Jesus with the Christ. So this would have been a basic assumption of his writing. Proving Jesus was the Christ wasn't the topic.
Also, what evidence do you have that early Christian's 'viewed him as a powerful spirit rather than as a god?'
Pliny (b. 63 AD) wrote a few letters ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Letters-Pliny-Yo...0140441271 ), he too laughed at us ``oily ones'', but recognised that the Christians he had personal dealings with had a custom of meeting regularly ``to chant verses alternately amongst themselves in honour of Christ as if to a god.''
Think it possible that you may be mistaken.
