RE: Is the universe infinite?
November 17, 2014 at 4:44 pm
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2014 at 6:34 pm by Spacedog.)
Thanks for the reply!
I didn't think it was known, I was just hoping for an educated guess
As you say we do not know if the universe really is infinite, but if we speculate that it was, no matter how unlikely an increase in order becomes, surely it will still happen?
Could you elaborate or will it be over my head?
Rabinowitz goes on to write after the original quote; "Guided by gravitational attraction, planets are formed from chaotic combinations of gases, so that the resulting planet has a much more complex structure than the material it was formed from. Nevertheless, when all the subtle aspects of the process of planetary formation and its effect on the surrounding space are taken into account, it can be shown that it gives rise to a net increase in entropy. (Furthermore, although the action of the gravitational force leads to greater order, so that it would seem that order is increasing in the universe, and was at a minimum at the big bang, when taking into account the expansion of space-time which is an unavoidable consequence of the same law of nature which 'produces' gravity, one can see that entropy always increases.)"
I'm guessing you disagree with him here? As he seems to believe there is a perfect balance while you don't think it's not necessarily always adhered to?
How does dark matter come into this by the way? I understand that theoretically it should be perfectly balanced with matter, although we have not got the experimental evidence to prove it?
I don't conclude it is infinite, I wouldn't be so brash when I have such little knowledge, but if I speculate that it is, everything makes a lot more sense. By that I mean the mind boggling complexity that is required for reality to exist as we know it. Layers upon layers of systems - individual parts ordering themselves together, parts made up of other parts. Thinking about it has led many not stupid people to believe in God - because it all seems so damn unlikely! But given infinite time, everything that can happen will happen.
I don't think it would be very interesting! I just need a place to vent my constant existential questioning, sadly it's not something I feel able to discuss with anyone in my day to day life. Other people don't seem to care very much about such issues, far more interested in day to day normality, friends, boyfriends, girlfriends, what's for dinner?... Or perhaps a lot of people do have the same thoughts but don't feel comfortable discussing them, more than likely a bit of both.
Plus there's hopefully a lot of knowledge between the people using these forums that I can benefit from!
Quote:First of all, it is not known whether the universe is spatially finite or infinite.
I didn't think it was known, I was just hoping for an educated guess
Quote:The probability is 1/2 for one particle, 1/4 for two, 1/1024 for ten, and you can guess what it is for one mole of gas with 10^23 molecules. Still, it is merely extremely unlikely, not absolutely forbidden that entropy suddenly decreases like this.
As you say we do not know if the universe really is infinite, but if we speculate that it was, no matter how unlikely an increase in order becomes, surely it will still happen?
Quote:Another matter is the embedding of all that in an expanding or contracting spacetime - then, things are not so obvious any more.
Could you elaborate or will it be over my head?
Quote:So I'd answer your fourth question in the affirmative, but I don't think a balance needs to be strictly kept.
Rabinowitz goes on to write after the original quote; "Guided by gravitational attraction, planets are formed from chaotic combinations of gases, so that the resulting planet has a much more complex structure than the material it was formed from. Nevertheless, when all the subtle aspects of the process of planetary formation and its effect on the surrounding space are taken into account, it can be shown that it gives rise to a net increase in entropy. (Furthermore, although the action of the gravitational force leads to greater order, so that it would seem that order is increasing in the universe, and was at a minimum at the big bang, when taking into account the expansion of space-time which is an unavoidable consequence of the same law of nature which 'produces' gravity, one can see that entropy always increases.)"
I'm guessing you disagree with him here? As he seems to believe there is a perfect balance while you don't think it's not necessarily always adhered to?
How does dark matter come into this by the way? I understand that theoretically it should be perfectly balanced with matter, although we have not got the experimental evidence to prove it?
Quote:I don't quite understand how you conclude that the universe is infinite.
I don't conclude it is infinite, I wouldn't be so brash when I have such little knowledge, but if I speculate that it is, everything makes a lot more sense. By that I mean the mind boggling complexity that is required for reality to exist as we know it. Layers upon layers of systems - individual parts ordering themselves together, parts made up of other parts. Thinking about it has led many not stupid people to believe in God - because it all seems so damn unlikely! But given infinite time, everything that can happen will happen.
(November 17, 2014 at 4:10 pm)Alex K Wrote: Btw, why don't you write an intro post!
I don't think it would be very interesting! I just need a place to vent my constant existential questioning, sadly it's not something I feel able to discuss with anyone in my day to day life. Other people don't seem to care very much about such issues, far more interested in day to day normality, friends, boyfriends, girlfriends, what's for dinner?... Or perhaps a lot of people do have the same thoughts but don't feel comfortable discussing them, more than likely a bit of both.
Plus there's hopefully a lot of knowledge between the people using these forums that I can benefit from!
