Christianity and its effect on self-worth

[Esquilax]

I didn't say atheist were more mentally ill, the depth of mental illness varies from person to person.

Then what on earth was the point of linking to that study, in order to rebut the idea that christianity is detrimental to one's self worth?

The study did not say Christians belief is unjustified, that's comes from your biased mind.

You're right, the study did not say that, that was me. But christian belief is unjustified, in that no evidence for the reality of it has ever been presented, beyond the personal experience crap that you lean on so heavily. That's not a bias either, it's just a simple statement of fact; whenever you attempt to offer objective proof of your religion, you fail so utterly that you're quickly reduced to just lobbing accusations at anyone who disagrees.

Like I said earlier, I know Christians far better than you do, I'm with them all the time and Christians have a God understood respect for life, why do you think we desire eternal life with God.

You did say that, but by the same justification by which you make that claim, I could make the same one. I'm around christians an awful lot too, you know.

If things were what you believe we wouldn't want to spend eternity with God. Your opinion has no validity to it. I do understand most atheist and their attachment to evolution and it's belief that human life is no more valuable than an ants life, have no respect for human life above the things most of us eat.

And there you go again: first the unjustified dismissal, and then the strawman of what evolution entails, which I can only label a lie now, given that I told you, in great detail, in the very post you're responding to, that I believe the exact opposite of what you're telling me I do.

Why are you lying to us, GC? If you're actually correct, why do you need to lie so blatantly?

Yes it was, if Christians take their life less often then the only conclusion is Christians handle depression better. With everything being equal except for the belief difference, there is no doubt about Christians handling depression better.

So, you definitely didn't read the study, because it offered another conclusion, different from the "only" conclusion you think there is; christian moral objections prevent suicide, without lessening the impact of depression in the slightest. That's literally in the study, GC.

Sure it's a good study, if I had doubt I wouldn't have posted it, the institutions alone were worthy enough to use their study. The study did not say Christians don't kill themselves because they are afraid of God, some Christians believe it's murder, but fewer believe that outside the Catholic Church. Christians seek to honor God and I doubt that killing oneself is a way to honor someone who holds life sacred.

The study specifically concluded that the moral objections to suicide- of which there are many, one of which being a fear of god, one of which being what you listed and no doubt a number of others- were what prevented christians from actually going through with it at rates similar to atheists. That was the conclusion it came to, in black and white English writing, for why the christian suicide rate is lower. Not that christians handle depression better, as you claimed. That's why I asked whether you thought the study was good or not; you agree with it where it suits you, but the moment its conclusions differ you start disagreeing with what it says.

There's no special pleading here, I would bet you do not attend church with them or go out of your way to understand how they feel, this is my way, I desire to know them. I would be surprised if you reacted with them, your posts lead to that conclusion. So your whining about special pleading holds no water.

The former, no, the latter, yes. I don't attend church, but I'm no less empathetic than I am normally. Besides your baseless dismissals, you are engaged in special pleading; living with christians is sufficient to know them when it's you, but when it's someone who disagrees with you suddenly it's not sufficient. That is textbook special pleading.

You are running out of a defense, self esteem has much to do with depression, you're just trying to deflect and the OP was specific about self esteem.

Oh, good lord...

If self esteem has much to do with depression, and the study indicates that instances of depression are roughly equal between the two groups, then your claim that christianity equips one with the self esteem to handle depression better is falsified by your own reference. That being said, there still was no measure or mention of self esteem in the study, and therefore it cannot be used to validate your claims on self esteem. It's not deflection, it's merely pointing out the content of the thing you wanted to use as a reference; so sorry that someone actually reading the thing you presented to us so we could read it offends you so much.

I'm paying very close attention to what you're saying, you're deflecting again.

By correcting the obvious mistake you made?

Here's the proof I'm paying attention, I did not say you said atheist suicide was less than Christians, you've read that in, why I don't know, but I'm guessing you know.

Then how am I in contradiction with my earlier statements?

Let's say for a moment you're correct, it works and less Christians are dying of the same disease, and IMO that's a plus and it's a plus atheist do not have. When one group has this and the other doesn't, it's considered a copying mechanism, no matter the reason. Now I do not agree with what you said above, because Christians do cope better because of the results, we do not take our lives as often. Personally one life lost on either side of this issue is to many.

Coping mechanisms, by definition, help you cope with something. Preventing the worst aspect of a disease without doing anything to lessen that disease is not a coping mechanism, it just means that the person involved doesn't outwardly exhibit a single symptom. It's like saying that one person dying of cancer is coping with it better because he doesn't also have a fever; the actual problem isn't addressed at all.

Here you go again deflecting, it's obvious what the study reveals, you just do not want to see what's in front of your face, your common sense is failing you.

Oh, right: it's obvious what the study reveals, even when what it reveals is directly contradicted by the words in the study. Right.

You need to get off this hell thing, outside the Catholic church few Christians believe one will go to hell because of suicide, we believe sin is forgiven remember. But most Christians do not believe suicide is a sin, we understand it's the result of a disease, why would a mental disease differ from a physical one?

I don't think you get to speak for all christians, for one. For another, fear of hell was one of numerous takes on the same topic that I fully acknowledge exist. My unwillingness to list every single variation on the "god has gifted you life, it would be ungrateful for you to take it before your time" theme, does not mean I'm only thinking about hell, here.

Esquilax, people who commit suicide do not have a high self worth, that's why people consider suicide, people with high self esteem rarely commit suicide. I'm not adding anything to the study, it says that Christians do cope with depression better because of their belief in God.

But adding to the study is exactly what you're doing, with that last sentence; committing suicide is the terminus of having suicidal thoughts, but not committing suicide does not mean that the person is not having suicidal thoughts. What the study shows, if anything, is that while actual suicides are higher among atheists, suicidal thoughts are not; a christian having those thoughts just has moral reasons, based on their belief in god, not to follow through on those thoughts.

You believe hell and fear as reasons for that belief to hinder Christians from taking their lives. I know that Christians have a different reason than you want to believe, it's the sanctity of life that Christianity gives us. Again you need to get over the hell thing, it could work for Catholics, but it just doesn't play into the greater part of the protestants.

But you do agree that, in order to get to the point where considering the sanctity of life would even be a relevant thought with regards to suicide, the christian thinking that would first need to be considering suicide, right? I mean, a person who isn't seriously considering suicide would never need to think "life is sacred because god created it, so I shouldn't commit suicide," they would just... not commit suicide.

Of coarse there are different levels of low self esteem, but very low self esteem is a cause of suicide and the OP refers to most Christians being brainwashed into low self esteem. However Christians deal with depression better than atheist, belief is the big difference between the two groups, you believe one reason and I another, the result is that Christians do better with depression as far as suicide concerned.

So, you're just going to keep re-asserting the same things, without ever addressing my contentions with that?

I know you've said this over and over and I've agreed every time and no I'm not a doctor, but I can read what they have discovered and that's really all that's needed to challenge the OP and continue this conversation.

Low self esteem does not inherently lead to suicide. Suicide is an expression of it, but not committing suicide does not mean you have high self esteem. So suicide rates are not indicators of the relative self esteem of a group and, even if they were, statistically speaking it's entirely possible for the atheist group to have lower depths of low self esteem, but for the christian group to have lower self esteem on average, as the results can be skewed if each individual atheist had higher self esteem overall.

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Then there's something wrong with your reasoning, scary wrong. I'm not degrading animals I have a real respect for them, but their lives are not as important as a human life. I raise rottweilers and they are smarter than some people I know, but I'll tell you this if one of them indiscriminately bite some one I myself would put that dog down, a human life is far more important than even my own rotties. I will also say this, I have more respect for my rotts than I do some people.

In some states you guys put down humans for indiscriminately attacking people too. I'm not for the death penalty, but I have to acknowledge it does happen. Even in the bible, it happens; your example is far from reflective of either humanity or your god's wishes, GC.

Besides, what's wrong with respecting life so much that you wouldn't ever take a life? What's scary about that? Wouldn't that make me less potentially harmful than a person who'd take a life at all?

If there were no God you can bet your life I would have been one to fear, if there was no one superior to have to answer to why hold back, after you die you'll never know what people would think about you.

Then you are clearly less moral than me, if the only thing holding you back from evil is god. Ask yourself why you need something to hold you back at all, when I need no such impetus to keep me from committing evil.

I have respect for all life, I'm not however going to put any above human life or equal to it, enough said about this. My big beef here is this, if you are going to carry on a conversation with me you need to address me and not talk pass me. This shows how little you consider the value of humans.

I'm not the one saying I'd be a murderer if a magic space wizard wasn't around. The value you put on humans is external and solely conditional on god's opinions of them. The value I put on life is based on traits inherent to life itself. The contrast couldn't be more apparent; you don't value life, you value the fact that god created life, whereas I value life for life.

According to your belief, to hold all life to a standard is relative, so my respect of an ant could very well be higher than your respect or lack there of, human life.

Sorry, I'm not a relativist. You're not going to be able to stick that to me.

Well if there was such a thing as evolution I would be in agreement with you, however life was created and I respectfully disagree with you.
The way many speak of evolution here, someone not knowing anything about it would be inclined to believe it was a god.

Fiat assertion, followed by the oft debunked "evolution is a religion!" canard. How boring.

Not true, all life should be held to a standard of respect and I do but, this person is always going to hold a human life above any other life.

So if we met alien life of equal- or higher!- intelligence and capabilities, you'd continue to assume that human life is more important than them... why? Don't say god; any alien species of that ilk would have been created by the same god, for the same ends, right?

God created all life and He made humans special and it's frightening to think that others do not see human life the most special life.

Why is human life the most special? Because god created them? God created all life, in your view. Because god said human life is special? Why should that matter? Why is god's subjective opinion the end of the discussion?

Anyone who puts all life on the same level as human life is the one who holds darkness in their heart, all life is wonderful, it's amazing and I find it fascinating, enough so I like to study and watch it as it lives.

GC

All life is wonderful and amazing, so what's dark about the fact that I afford it more respect than you do?