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What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?
January 30, 2018 at 2:53 am (This post was last modified: January 30, 2018 at 3:22 am by Whateverist.)
For me the beliefs I would look at are those involving the status of the bible, origins, the soul & afterlife, and the nature of God. Here is what that would look like for me.
Regarding the bible, a reasonable Christian would have to accept the best scholarship regarding the origins of the text without regard to the denomination or belief status of the scholar. It would also mean accepting that the proper way to read the bible is a reasonable topic for discussion, with all points of view accepted and without doctrinal dedication to a particular interpretation. Those who believe the bible tells a Christian how to lead his life would be welcome to defend that position. Likewise for those who think its chief use is allegorical or for those who think parts of it were literally inspired by God. Every stance must be tolerated and defended, and none would enjoy authoritative standing.
Regarding origins, given what was already said about the bible, the beliefs a Christian could reasonably hold about creation would have to accord with the science surrounding the development and age of the earth as well as with our own evolution. They could hold that God was behind it in some unspecified way but that can't lead to conflicts with the science if their beliefs are to be deemed reasonable.
Oddly I think there is more room for Christians to hold what would strike us as lavishly speculative theories of what happens to a person's essence after death, since these wouldn't contradict anything essential about life as we know it. But again to be reasonable, they would at least have to allow that another Christian is free to hold that talk of heaven, hell and souls is all figurative. Talk of "true Christians" would have to be acknowledged to be unreasonable.
As for God, we should expect some Christians to see God as something inside, others as something out there and still others as something purely symbolic. As with souls and an afterlife, any beliefs regarding the nature of God which doesn't contradict life as we know it, would be reasonable and insistence that any particular point of view should be accepted by all would be unreasonable - or else justified in a manner which doesn't claim an unearned authority.
It remains to be seen if that leaves enough for anyone to still find meaning and value in their Christian affiliation. Naturally being considered to hold reasonable beliefs by the standards of non-Christians is probably of no concern to any Christians we know but hell - this exercise isn't for them anyhow. (But theists should feel free to kibitz too.)
RE: What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?
January 30, 2018 at 5:26 am
According to Galatians 1:9 (GNT) the standard is = "We have said it before, and now I say it again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel that is different from the one you accepted, may he be condemned to hell!"
RE: What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?
January 30, 2018 at 8:09 am (This post was last modified: January 30, 2018 at 8:24 am by Succubus.)
Overall, an excellent post Whateverist but I'm rather confused as to why you give them so much leeway, as in:
Quote:As with souls and an afterlife, any beliefs regarding the nature of God which doesn't contradict life as we know it, would be reasonable and insistence that any particular point of view should be accepted by all would be unreasonable - or else justified in a manner which doesn't claim an unearned authority.
Everything we know about 'life as we know it' tells us that souls and the afterlife are unfalsifiable propositions and as such should be dismissed without a second thought. There is nothing reasonable about belief in the soul, it was ridiculous nonsense two thousand years ago and it's ridiculous nonsense now. In effect you are giving them unlimited discretionary powers to believe anything, everything and nothing, don't they do this anyway?
Just look at some recent propositions by 'liberal Christian thinkers' on the subject of atheists and hell. They use so much 'spin' in their attempts to redefine God into existence that the G-forces involved have rendered what remains of actual church teachings and dogma into shrapnel.
All that remains is a nice warm feeling, ie, standard issue cafeteria Christians who are utterly incapable of describing what it is they actually believe. I have more respect for the fire and brimstone fundies, at least they actually believe something.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
RE: What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?
January 30, 2018 at 8:13 am (This post was last modified: January 30, 2018 at 8:14 am by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
Quote:Every stance must be tolerated and defended, and none would enjoy authoritative standing.
You have just defined 'reasonable Christian' out of existence. I'm not being flip. The whole essence of the NT is that God is there only for those who believe and accept, and the entire goal of every sect of Christianity is to enjoy authoritative standing.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
RE: What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?
January 30, 2018 at 8:30 am
(January 30, 2018 at 2:53 am)Whateverist Wrote:
For me the beliefs I would look at are those involving the status of the bible, origins, the soul & afterlife, and the nature of God. Here is what that would look like for me.
Regarding the bible, a reasonable Christian would have to accept the best scholarship regarding the origins of the text without regard to the denomination or belief status of the scholar. It would also mean accepting that the proper way to read the bible is a reasonable topic for discussion, with all points of view accepted and without doctrinal dedication to a particular interpretation. Those who believe the bible tells a Christian how to lead his life would be welcome to defend that position. Likewise for those who think its chief use is allegorical or for those who think parts of it were literally inspired by God. Every stance must be tolerated and defended, and none would enjoy authoritative standing.
Regarding origins, given what was already said about the bible, the beliefs a Christian could reasonably hold about creation would have to accord with the science surrounding the development and age of the earth as well as with our own evolution. They could hold that God was behind it in some unspecified way but that can't lead to conflicts with the science if their beliefs are to be deemed reasonable.
Oddly I think there is more room for Christians to hold what would strike us as lavishly speculative theories of what happens to a person's essence after death, since these wouldn't contradict anything essential about life as we know it. But again to be reasonable, they would at least have to allow that another Christian is free to hold that talk of heaven, hell and souls is all figurative. Talk of "true Christians" would have to be acknowledged to be unreasonable.
As for God, we should expect some Christians to see God as something inside, others as something out there and still others as something purely symbolic. As with souls and an afterlife, any beliefs regarding the nature of God which doesn't contradict life as we know it, would be reasonable and insistence that any particular point of view should be accepted by all would be unreasonable - or else justified in a manner which doesn't claim an unearned authority.
It remains to be seen if that leaves enough for anyone to still find meaning and value in their Christian affiliation. Naturally being considered to hold reasonable beliefs by the standards of non-Christians is probably of no concern to any Christians we know but hell - this exercise isn't for them anyhow. (But theists should feel free to kibitz too.)
I might have some quibbles in a few of the specifics, but most of the general principles I would agree with.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
RE: What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?
January 30, 2018 at 10:51 am (This post was last modified: January 30, 2018 at 10:58 am by Whateverist.)
(January 30, 2018 at 8:09 am)Succubus Wrote: Overall, an excellent post Whateverist but I'm rather confused as to why you give them so much leeway, as in:
Quote:As with souls and an afterlife, any beliefs regarding the nature of God which doesn't contradict life as we know it, would be reasonable and insistence that any particular point of view should be accepted by all would be unreasonable - or else justified in a manner which doesn't claim an unearned authority.
Everything we know about 'life as we know it' tells us that souls and the afterlife are unfalsifiable propositions and as such should be dismissed without a second thought. There is nothing reasonable about belief in the soul, it was ridiculous nonsense two thousand years ago and it's ridiculous nonsense now. In effect you are giving them unlimited discretionary powers to believe anything, everything and nothing, don't they do this anyway?
Just look at some recent propositions by 'liberal Christian thinkers' on the subject of atheists and hell. They use so much 'spin' in their attempts to redefine God into existence that the G-forces involved have rendered what remains of actual church teachings and dogma into shrapnel.
All that remains is a nice warm feeling, ie, standard issue cafeteria Christians who are utterly incapable of describing what it is they actually believe. I have more respect for the fire and brimstone fundies, at least they actually believe something.
All I can say is that a reasonable Christian needs to accept life in a pluralistic society in which many -including those who also claim the mantle of belief- reject as an empty set anything claimed to be supernatural. So long as they weren't pushy or condescending about it I think the rest of us should be able to deal with it as quaint or as though they are a little late in transiting a developmental stage. We might have to deal with the fact that there will always be a portion of the population whose response toward big questions evoke literalism. Still, not bad for species of chimpanzee who has only recently learned to manipulate abstract ideas. So long as no one starts swinging the jaw bone of an ass down on any ones head I say we need to deal with it. We may or may not all be prepared to handle this shit.
RE: What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?
January 30, 2018 at 12:35 pm (This post was last modified: January 30, 2018 at 12:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I don't think that there is such a thing as a reasonable christian, only a faithful one. There could be reasonable jesusists, who perhaps believe in god and think that some of the things that the character in magic book said would probably be agreeable to that god. They'd still be wrong, and blatantly so..but it would only rely on a single mistake much further up the chain of misery. It's more relatable, a bit like thinking chevy is better than ford and then making a poor purchase on account of that brand loyalty.
In the meantime, call me when the faithful -stop- swinging the jawbones of various asses down on peoples heads.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?
January 30, 2018 at 12:50 pm
(January 30, 2018 at 12:35 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I don't think that there is such a thing as a reasonable christian, only a faithful one. There could be reasonable jesusists, who perhaps believe in god and think that some of the things that the character in magic book said would probably be agreeable to that god. They'd still be wrong, and blatantly so..but it would only rely on a single mistake much further up the chain of misery. It's more relatable, a bit like thinking chevy is better than ford and then making a poor purchase on account of that brand loyalty.
In the meantime, call me when the faithful -stop- swinging the jawbones of various asses down on peoples heads.
'If you could reason with religious people, there would BE no religious people.' - Gregory House, MD
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
