Christianity and its effect on self-worth

[Godscreated]

I didn't say atheist were more mentally ill, the depth of mental illness varies from person to person.

Then what on earth was the point of linking to that study, in order to rebut the idea that christianity is detrimental to one's self worth?

Of coarse, why should there have to be another reason. If you think I did it to show atheist commit suicide more often I did not, it was to show that Christians have a coping mechanism that keeps their suicide rate lower than atheists. I hate that anyone takes their life, and I do mean anyone.

The study did not say Christians belief is unjustified, that's comes from your biased mind.

You're right, the study did not say that, that was me. But christian belief is unjustified, in that no evidence for the reality of it has ever been presented, beyond the personal experience crap that you lean on so heavily.

Well what would you call the study that shows, though both sides have the same amount of depression, Christians have less incidents of suicide. There's a reason for this conclusion and the study made clear there was a reason, though it didn't say that God himself was the reason, it did not deny it either. You draw your own ideas from you nonchristian belief and I draw my idea from the experience you say I do not have and the teachings of scripture and the people I surround my self with, purposely.

Like I said earlier, I know Christians far better than you do, I'm with them all the time and Christians have a God understood respect for life, why do you think we desire eternal life with God.

You did say that, but by the same justification by which you make that claim, I could make the same one. I'm around christians an awful lot too, you know.

I addressed this in the last post, I guess you missed it. I live my life with Christians because they are my life, so I do understand them through who they are in personal relationships. Do you do the same? Being around people doesn't necessarily mean you understand them and their beliefs, making them your life gives one an understanding of who they are.

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If things were what you believe we wouldn't want to spend eternity with God. Your opinion has no validity to it. I do understand most atheist and their attachment to evolution and it's belief that human life is no more valuable than an ants life, have no respect for human life above the things most of us eat.

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And there you go again: first the unjustified dismissal, and then the strawman of what evolution entails, which I can only label a lie now, given that I told you, in great detail, in the very post you're responding to, that I believe the exact opposite of what you're telling me I do.

I will accept that as truth, however you were dancing around the argument as though you gave all life the same importance.

Why are you lying to us, GC? If you're actually correct, why do you need to lie so blatantly?

I'm not lying about whatever it is you believe I'm lying about, if it's my saying atheist believe that all life has the same importance, that's been stated here by many of the atheist, again and again over the five years I've been here. So I'm actually repeating what atheist have said.

Yes it was, if Christians take their life less often then the only conclusion is Christians handle depression better. With everything being equal except for the belief difference, there is no doubt about Christians handling depression better.

So, you definitely didn't read the study, because it offered another conclusion, different from the "only" conclusion you think there is; christian moral objections prevent suicide, without lessening the impact of depression in the slightest. That's literally in the study, GC.

I said that Christians can cope with depression better than atheist, that's what the study says, I never said that it lessened the depression. People can cope with many things without lessening the effect of the thing, agree. Christians cope with depression because they have a God given respect for human life, this is something an atheist doesn't have, this is the difference in the suicide rate, I do not know how to explain this any simpler.

Sure it's a good study, if I had doubt I wouldn't have posted it, the institutions alone were worthy enough to use their study. The study did not say Christians don't kill themselves because they are afraid of God, some Christians believe it's murder, but fewer believe that outside the Catholic Church. Christians seek to honor God and I doubt that killing oneself is a way to honor someone who holds life sacred.

The study specifically concluded that the moral objections to suicide- of which there are many, one of which being a fear of god, one of which being what you listed and no doubt a number of others- were what prevented christians from actually going through with it at rates similar to atheists.

I agree with this, what nonchristians do not understand is Christians have a fear of God as in respect and as being fearful, because of who God is in both. The fear is not hell as you assume. Like I said in the last post, Catholics are more likely to fear hell and if I lived a belief that they do I might also. I do not, so hell has nothing to do with it. I would have to write many pages to explain what protestant Christians believe about the fear of God, and I'm not going to do that here. You'll just have to trust I understand the belief of most protestant Christians in this matter. Or not.

That was the conclusion it came to, in black and white English writing, for why the christian suicide rate is lower. Not that christians handle depression better, as you claimed. That's why I asked whether you thought the study was good or not; you agree with it where it suits you, but the moment its conclusions differ you start disagreeing with what it says.

You've only given assertions about what I said and believe about the study, I given you no reason to think I differ on what it says and you have not shown that I have. Let's say Christians don't handle depression better, then exactly why do Christians have a lower suicide rate, it's not the fear of hell nor the fear of a vengeful God and why, because we know we're forgiven even if we believed it sinful. How is an illness sinful or the result of the illness, until you can explain this you have no ground to stand on.

There's no special pleading here, I would bet you do not attend church with them or go out of your way to understand how they feel, this is my way, I desire to know them. I would be surprised if you reacted with them, your posts lead to that conclusion. So your whining about special pleading holds no water.

The former, no, the latter, yes. I don't attend church, but I'm no less empathetic than I am normally. Besides your baseless dismissals, you are engaged in special pleading; living with christians is sufficient to know them when it's you, but when it's someone who disagrees with you suddenly it's not sufficient. That is textbook special pleading.

Come on, special pleading, you're grasping at straws. I worked where most people did not believe in God, worked closely with them and I didn't understand why they wanted to live the way they did. Being in close proximity to a certain group of people doesn't mean one learns who they are, living their life on the other hand gives one certain and special insight into who they are. As far as I know one can't live two opposite lives and come to an understanding of either.

You are running out of a defense, self esteem has much to do with depression, you're just trying to deflect and the OP was specific about self esteem.

Oh, good lord...

Strange reply from one who has called the Lord anything but good.

If self esteem has much to do with depression, and the study indicates that instances of depression are roughly equal between the two groups, then your claim that christianity equips one with the self esteem to handle depression better is falsified by your own reference.

The instances are no more than a number, the instances has nothing to do with the severity of depression in each individual, there's no way they could determine the deepest effects depression had on each individual. I know they could get some idea of the state of depression in each suffered, but nothing precise. Self esteem is what the OP was about and it's what I was trying to address and self esteem has much to do with depression.

That being said, there still was no measure or mention of self esteem in the study, and therefore it cannot be used to validate your claims on self esteem. It's not deflection, it's merely pointing out the content of the thing you wanted to use as a reference; so sorry that someone actually reading the thing you presented to us so we could read it offends you so much.

You think highly of your little dodgy man don't you.
You mean to tell me that a study about depression and self esteem is not considered, of coarse it is, whether it's mentioned or not, low self esteem and depression hold hands.

I'm paying very close attention to what you're saying, you're deflecting again.

By correcting the obvious mistake you made?

What mistake, taking to opposite side of this conversation, the only thing I've seen is you trying to play with and twist words and the obvious.

Here's the proof I'm paying attention, I did not say you said atheist suicide was less than Christians, you've read that in, why I don't know, but I'm guessing you know.

Then how am I in contradiction with my earlier statements?

You implied that I accused you of saying atheist had a lower rate of suicide, when I never said such.

Let's say for a moment you're correct, it works and less Christians are dying of the same disease, and IMO that's a plus and it's a plus atheist do not have. When one group has this and the other doesn't, it's considered a copying mechanism, no matter the reason. Now I do not agree with what you said above, because Christians do cope better because of the results, we do not take our lives as often. Personally one life lost on either side of this issue is to many.

Coping mechanisms, by definition, help you cope with something. Preventing the worst aspect of a disease without doing anything to lessen that disease is not a coping mechanism, it just means that the person involved doesn't outwardly exhibit a single symptom. It's like saying that one person dying of cancer is coping with it better because he doesn't also have a fever; the actual problem isn't addressed at all.

Whaaaaat?
Bold mine. Isn't that what I've been saying! Listen to what you said in the next sentence, please. Preventing any part of the disease helps one to cope. Your cancer analogy doesn't make any sense at all. I'm saying if a person with cancer is dying, a way to cope is to raise one's self esteem and fight the cancer. There is known evidence this works, it's a study that I'm not going to get into now, because in the end I doubt we will come to agreement on this study.

Here you go again deflecting, it's obvious what the study reveals, you just do not want to see what's in front of your face, your common sense is failing you.

Oh, right: it's obvious what the study reveals, even when what it reveals is directly contradicted by the words in the study. Right.

Twist it till the blood runs out, but you can't change the truth of the study.

Esquilax, people who commit suicide do not have a high self worth, that's why people consider suicide, people with high self esteem rarely commit suicide. I'm not adding anything to the study, it says that Christians do cope with depression better because of their belief in God.

But adding to the study is exactly what you're doing,...

I'm addressing the crux of the OP.

What the study shows, if anything, is that while actual suicides are higher among atheists, suicidal thoughts are not; a christian having those thoughts just has moral reasons, based on their belief in god, not to follow through on those thoughts.

Well what do you know we have agreement after all, the bold.

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You believe hell and fear as reasons for that belief to hinder Christians from taking their lives. I know that Christians have a different reason than you want to believe, it's the sanctity of life that Christianity gives us. Again you need to get over the hell thing, it could work for Catholics, but it just doesn't play into the greater part of the protestants.

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But you do agree that, in order to get to the point where considering the sanctity of life would even be a relevant thought with regards to suicide, the christian thinking that would first need to be considering suicide, right? I mean, a person who isn't seriously considering suicide would never need to think "life is sacred because god created it, so I shouldn't commit suicide," they would just... not commit suicide.

I agree as related to suicide. But, to believe that, in relation to suicide, a person would first have to believe in the sanctity of life because God created it. The belief would have to be there before it's use, wouldn't you agree?

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Of coarse there are different levels of low self esteem, but very low self esteem is a cause of suicide and the OP refers to most Christians being brainwashed into low self esteem. However Christians deal with depression better than atheist, belief is the big difference between the two groups, you believe one reason and I another, the result is that Christians do better with depression as far as suicide concerned.

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So, you're just going to keep re-asserting the same things, without ever addressing my contentions with that?

I've addressed them, if I hadn't my last post would have been quite short and as we both can see it wasn't short and neither is this one, because I'm addressing your contentions. My re-assertions have to do with your not listening to my explanations.

I know you've said this over and over and I've agreed every time and no I'm not a doctor, but I can read what they have discovered and that's really all that's needed to challenge the OP and continue this conversation.

Low self esteem does not inherently lead to suicide.

Agreed.

Suicide is an expression of it, but not committing suicide does not mean you have high self esteem.

Agreed, but I believe using the word expression in not necessarily the best choice. Reaction to it might be more appropriate.

So suicide rates are not indicators of the relative self esteem of a group and, even if they were, statistically speaking it's entirely possible for the atheist group to have lower depths of low self esteem

Suicide rates are a definite indicator of low self esteem, one or a group with high self esteem is not likely to commit suicide. Those who commit suicide will nearly always have low self esteem. I agreed that low self esteem does not necessarily lead directly to suicide but, it almost always leads to some level of depression and at the deep end of depression is the possibility of suicide. So the three have a relationship.

, but for the christian group to have lower self esteem on average, as the results can be skewed if each individual atheist had higher self esteem overall.

As I said early on in this post, that would be extremely hard to determine, but I guess an average is possible.

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Then there's something wrong with your reasoning, scary wrong. I'm not degrading animals I have a real respect for them, but their lives are not as important as a human life. I raise rottweilers and they are smarter than some people I know, but I'll tell you this if one of them indiscriminately bite some one I myself would put that dog down, a human life is far more important than even my own rotties. I will also say this, I have more respect for my rotts than I do some people.

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In some states you guys put down humans for indiscriminately attacking people too. I'm not for the death penalty, but I have to acknowledge it does happen. Even in the bible, it happens; your example is far from reflective of either humanity or your god's wishes, GC.

I'm no real fan of the death penalty, but in some cases I believe it's justified. We had a case here where three men and one women were convicted of murdering, raping, burning and trashing a young couple, the men raped both the man and women. They tortured them for hours on end before they killed them, none got the death penalty, and almost everyone here was in disbelief they did not, my self included. The women even wrote in her diary she had more enjoyment doing that than anything else will visiting east Tennessee.
Now to answer what you stated, my example is in reflective of the way I see the value of life and I'm positive God wouldn't disagree with my example.

Besides, what's wrong with respecting life so much that you wouldn't ever take a life? What's scary about that? Wouldn't that make me less potentially harmful than a person who'd take a life at all?

I hunt for the meat of the animal, it doesn't cause me to disrespect life, on the contrary, I have a greater respect because I appreciate what the life given has brought to me. When I hunt I do not take risky shots and I almost always place the shot to kill quickly, I do not like to watch an animal suffer, I've actually shot a second time to end the animals life quickly so it wouldn't suffer. When I see a deer that's been hit by a vehicle and it's not dead, I'll stop and put the deer down so it want suffer, I do have an appreciation for life. I'm sure some will believe differently because I killed, it's not the killing I enjoy it's the meal I receive. Yes, there's enjoyment in the hunt, man verses animal in the animals environment.
Now with that bit said I'll answer your question. There's nothing wrong with respecting life so much one wouldn't take a life and I've not said anything to the contrary. I did not say that respecting life made you scary, what I did say, if you or anyone believed that a human life was no more important than an animals life it would be scary. What I meant, I could see someone choosing to save a dog's life over a human's, and I just can not abide that kind of thinking.

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If there were no God you can bet your life I would have been one to fear, if there was no one superior to have to answer to why hold back, after you die you'll never know what people would think about you.

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Then you are clearly less moral than me, if the only thing holding you back from evil is god. Ask yourself why you need something to hold you back at all, when I need no such impetus to keep me from committing evil.

No not at all, because if there is no moral superiority in the universe there are no morals, and with no God there's no morals. You would be easy prey, a stepping stone, for others to gain the superior advantage. The only thing holding back some people are laws, those who break them see no moral superiority in the law and there is none in the law itself. That's exactly why most of the Jewish laws in the OT have little use in Christianity. Jesus is the new law, a law of giving, a law of love, love that forgives sin. The use of the old law was to point out sin, enough about that.

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I have respect for all life, I'm not however going to put any above human life or equal to it, enough said about this. My big beef here is this, if you are going to carry on a conversation with me you need to address me and not talk pass me. This shows how little you consider the value of humans.

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I'm not the one saying I'd be a murderer if a magic space wizard wasn't around. The value you put on humans is external and solely conditional on god's opinions of them.

No, the value I put on life is internal, it comes from my knowledge of my Creator and His moral superiority. This allows me to put a value to different kinds of life according to His creation and it allows me to have respect for all life.

The value I put on life is based on traits inherent to life itself. The contrast couldn't be more apparent; you don't value life, you value the fact that god created life, whereas I value life for life.

Like I just said I respect all life and it's value comes from God because He is the creator. Yes I do put a great value on my Creator, after all I wouldn't exist without Him. You see life through the belief you have in evolution and I see through the belief I have in God. We are without a doubt on different sides of the fence of life and will never completely agree on many things. But we both have expressed our respect for life and that's a good thing for both of us.

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According to your belief, to hold all life to a standard is relative, so my respect of an ant could very well be higher than your respect or lack there of, human life.

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Sorry, I'm not a relativist. You're not going to be able to stick that to me.

Fair enough.

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Well if there was such a thing as evolution I would be in agreement with you, however life was created and I respectfully disagree with you.
The way many speak of evolution here, someone not knowing anything about it would be inclined to believe it was a god.

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Fiat assertion, followed by the oft debunked "evolution is a religion!" canard. How boring.

Boring for you maybe but, evolution started as a religion and is still a religion, it's more religious than correctly practiced Christianity.

Not true, all life should be held to a standard of respect and I do but, this person is always going to hold a human life above any other life.

So if we met alien life of equal- or higher!- intelligence and capabilities, you'd continue to assume that human life is more important than them... why? Don't say god; any alien species of that ilk would have been created by the same god, for the same ends, right?

There's no alien life, the Bible makes it clear all the universe suffered due to sin. If there were aliens it wouldn't be just to them to suffer because man sinned. God wouldn't allow that to happen.
I'm not an assumptionist so to speak, I have said many times here I do not deal in assumptions.

God created all life and He made humans special and it's frightening to think that others do not see human life the most special life.

Why is human life the most special? Because god created them? God created all life, in your view.

Yes and yes.

Because god said human life is special? Why should that matter? Why is god's subjective opinion the end of the discussion?

Yes. Assume God is real just for a minute it want hurt, being creator His word on the matter would be objective by necessity, that's why there would be a quick end to the discussion. Okay you can qit assuming now, I don't want you to be in a lot of pain.

Anyone who puts all life on the same level as human life is the one who holds darkness in their heart, all life is wonderful, it's amazing and I find it fascinating, enough so I like to study and watch it as it lives.
GC

All life is wonderful and amazing, so what's dark about the fact that I afford it more respect than you do?

Like I said we have both shown our great respect for life, so lets not get into the, I have more than you do thing. You said you didn't believe in what I said about those who believe in evolution, which I have taken you hold human life higher than other life, am I wrong? If not then my above statement doesn't pertain to you.

I expect you'll answer back to this post and that's good if you want to, I'll read your reply. I want answer back though I believe we have gone about as far as we can in this discussion and for once it went fairly well lets not push ea ch other farther when it's not necessary. Thanks for the good conversation.

GC