RE: A Simple Rule
January 6, 2015 at 1:29 pm
(This post was last modified: January 6, 2015 at 1:36 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: I confess two mistakes which I'd like to correct now.
First is my misunderstanding of the definition of the word "heritage". Based on the definition cited for me, it does appear to be so broad as to include ideas you were raised to believe ...or seemingly anything else associated with the human experience. Everything is a heritage. If I was raised by conservative GOP parents (I wasn't but hypothetically) then I have a conservative GOP heritage. I was raised by atheists but my grandparents were Christian so maybe I do have a "Christian heritage" even though I am by no means a Christian.
Sure, and this is more like the DeistPaladin I know and love. No worries, no one is perfect, and respect to somebody who can admit a mistake.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Second was I allowed myself to get distracted by a moving topic. I'm not accusing anyone of shifting goal posts because I don't think it was deliberate. Topic drift is a natural thing and I should have been more focused.
That's true, thanks for thinking it through. I may have lost focus myself.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: The original point, to which I had so passionately responded "NO! IT'S! NOT!" is the proposed analogy that just as it's unfair to hold a German responsible for what the Nazis did, so to it is unfair to hold Islam responsible for radical Islam. Do I have this right? I don't want to straw man anyone. Assuming it is, I'd like to return to that topic and break it down:
Sure. That's the gist of it, holding Islam responsible for the Islamic fundamentalism and extremism the West has deliberately fostered in the Middle East and North Africa for over a century is akin to blaming German culture for Naziism, as though 'that's what you get with Germans', as if (for example) a vengeful treaty wasn't a much more likely and direct cause of the rise of the Nazi movement.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: [*]Proposed analogy: Just as it is unfair to take a German to task for what the Nazis did, it is unfair to hold Islam responsible for the actions of radical Islam.
[*]Definition: Radical Islam is an ideology.
[*]Definition: Nazism is an ideology.
[*]Definition: "German" is a race and/or a nationality.
[*]Therefore: according to this analogy, Islam is a....
[/list]
If you did not intend to say "Islam is a race" you, to be frank, used a sloppy analogy.
There's no such thing as a perfect analogy. By focusing on the differences between the two things being compared rather than the similarities, you're putting in a lot of effort to miss the point. The similarity in question has been explained in painstaking detail. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you don't understand the point. I believe you are evading it, so you're dissecting the analogy instead of responding to it. To me, that indicative of lacking a cogent response. Again, I don't see you behaving this way on other topics.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: I demand it so I'm using the word "must". Society may not comply for now but perhaps if more of us demand it as well, that may change.
That might be more effective if you stomp your foot while you're at it.
(January 5, 2015 at 3:33 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:(January 5, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: But it's okay to discriminate against them or abuse them on other bases? I don't think you believe that. I just think you're not taking much care with what you post.I do and we as a society do.
How do you discriminate against them and abuse them? I'm having trouble accepting that you actually do this, and suspect you're doing something like considering mere criticism 'abuse'. I suppose name-calling and rudeness could be considered mild abuse, provided the people you're haranging are not part of your household or subordinate to you at work (then it would be a much more serious situation). Are you in a position to hire people, and if an otherwise qualified person with religious ideas you don't like applies, you give the job to a less-qualified person whose thinking you find agreeable?
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: There's a reason why if someone talks to invisible, undetected beings, we treat that person as if they are crazy.
Actually, as a rule, most people do not treat such people as crazy, unless they are adults and the being to whom they are supposedly talking is not a supposed deity or spirit to whom the people of that person's religion pray.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: If someone thinks feeding ice cream to a computer helps it run faster, that person is not going to have much chance of landing an I.T. job.
People who think that are not the topic, are they? The people we're talking about are more likely to think a momentary silent prayer will give them an edge in completing a task successfully. Someone like that can be as effective an I.T. person as an atheist, if their skill level is the same. Better, if their skill level is higher.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: If someone talks openly about their experience in a UFO abduction but can't generate any evidence that it happened, that person is unlikely to be elected to office. And there's nothing wrong with this.
There's so little wrong with it that it's not actually an example of discrimination. A politician's job one is to get elected, and if they are not capable of discerning what sort of behavior will prevent that from happening, they lack sufficient competence to do that job. It's not the belief that prevents a successful campaign though, it's not keeping their mouths shut about things the electorate won't appreciate.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: I'm not saying Islam approaches this degree of insanity.
Hence, the Islamic presence in the IT world.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: I'm simply pointing out that people who believe crazy things are considered suspect in our society.
People who believe certain crazy things are considered suspect in our society. Some crazy things people believe are not only usually not considered suspect, they're expected.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: We hold people to account for what they believe and why and consider carefully how this might either influence their actions (past, present and future) or affect their competence at certain jobs. This is at least how we operate in all areas of our discourse with the special exception we've arbitrarily created for socially accepted religious beliefs.
The exception isn't arbitrary. As a society, and in the study of psychology, we recognize an essential difference between holding a belief that was indoctrinated into you from a young age that nearly everyone you admire, trust, and respect also holds, and some crazy stuff you made up on your own and really believe.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Consider:
One man with crazy beliefs is an asylum inmate.
Two men with crazy beliefs are a cult.
Three men with crazy beliefs are a respected religion.
Yes, and there are pertinent reasons for that. For example, the single man with crazy beliefs has them for reasons other than having been indoctrinated in them from the time he could talk. There's a good chance he has the belief because he's crazy, while the people in the religion are more likely to be sane people with some crazy beliefs.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:(January 5, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Yet a baby born to Muslim parents is almost as likely to wind up Muslim as a baby born to German parents is to wind up speaking German.Key phrase being "wind up". Babies are all born atheists. They only become Muslim when artificially indoctrinated. But since we agree Islam is not a race, this is beside the point.
They're also born not speaking German. Becoming Muslim is no more artificial for a young child than learning German. Imitating their parents is what small children do. The vast majority of them put no more thought into accepting their parent's religious ideas than they put into accepting their meaning for words. And that's unlikely to change much until they're teenagers (if then) when most of them will still be unequipped to evaluate claims critically.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:(January 5, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: So only people with ideas of which you approve deserve protection?No. That's not what I'm saying at all.
Glad to hear it.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:(January 5, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Muslims, particularly in Western secular States, deserve protection from having their mosques vandalized, from being accosted (or worse) in the street for dressing differently, and from being treated as though they are guilty until proven innocent in the eyes of the law.
I agree.
I thought you would.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:(January 5, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: They do not, of course, have protection from criticism. No group does.I agree.
We're on a roll!
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:(January 5, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: But you insist that everyone accept your characterization of Islam as accurate and fair a prioriThat's not what I'm saying at all.
I was hoping that.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Here's what I am saying:
I have studied Christianity in, I think it's fair to say, great detail, at least as much as one who doesn't have a divinity degree. I've read the Bible, read many apologietics, studied the history from multiple perspectives and debated many apologists.
You're clearly one of the most knowledgeable posters here on the topic of Christianity, as I've noticed many times.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Now to focus on one topic for brevity, Christianity is anti-gay. Fred Phelps' "church" is not a perversion of Christian doctrine but an expression of it. Liberal-minded Christians can tie themselves into knots and perform mental gymnastics to reinterpret scripture as they like. Most often, they have (1) not read the scriptures (2) cherry picked them (3) come up with obtuse interpretations that border on making up their own religion.
Yes. And so have the fundamentalists. They're reacting to modernity and its uncertainties, not practicing some 'pure' form of their religion. A pure form is impossible when scriptures are contradictory and open to multiple interpretations. For some reason, you've decided the fundamentalists are the ones who are interpreting their religion 'correctly', but there really isn't such a thing. As any congress critter knows, it's very difficult to write a lengthy document that at least some parts of can't be interpreted more than one way. And the most you can really say is that they're interpreting it correctly, in your opinion. To say Christianity is anti-gay, and getting there by basically saying the Christians who aren't anti-gay don't count because you think their interpretation is wrong just shows that for some reason you want to say Christianity is anti-gay and you won't let a little thing like prominent Christian denominations that are pro-gay keep you from your over-generalization.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Now most Christians I personally know are very nice people. They are not anti-gay bigots. Saying the religion is doesn't necessarily mean they personally are. Some of them do harbor anti-gay prejudice, in my view likely the result of the effect of indoctrination by their religion. I have little doubt that they would not participate in any anti-gay violence. And yet, the religion has an effect on society overall, fostering anti-gay bullying and violence and making gay rights a harder struggle than it might be with a more tolerant religion.
And if they are, say, United Church of Christ, their religion has an effect on their opposition to anti-gay bullying and violence and so forth.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Hence, I am able to criticize a religion without calling for any violation of a Christian's rights.
Well, you've given a fair criticism of a portion of a religion and pretended it's the whole thing.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Shifting to the topic of religious violence, I have no problem placing the blame for the Crusades, the Inquisition and the burning of "witches" on Christianity. I can see a clear cause and effect between believing that the world is divided between stark good and evil (the former being the embodied in the god they serve) allowing for no neutrality, along with the dire consequences of their faith-based scheme of salvation, and the subsequent outbreaks of violence.
Hmm. Those things didn't really change, did they? Yet the violence in the name of Christianity all but vanished. Clearly, Christian beliefs played a role in the expression of violence, but perhaps other factors were closer to the root cause. It's worth noting though, that in mostly neutralizing Christian-based violence, not much about Christian beliefs were changed.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: I don't know as much about Islam. I'd like to have an honest discussion about it.
Me, too.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Can we have such a discussion?
It seems not, and your next paragraph illustrates why.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: It seems to be as similar to the NRA and gun violence in my country. Every time there is a mass shooting, you can almost count "3... 2... 1..." before the NRA swoops in to divert attention from the obvious problem of the plentiful and easy availability of guns in my country and from the obvious question "how did this crazy person get a gun?"
Yeah, yeah, your arguments are real arguments, the things other people say are just diversions and excuses, so your time is best spent complaining about that rather than attempting to refute them.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Other excuses are offered. It must be video games. It must be violence in movies. I must be the music the shooter listened to. It must be anything but the readily available guns in America. Yet there is violence in movies, video games and music everywhere in the world.
That's why we'll never have sensible gun control in America anytime soon.
Because those excuses stymie the part of your brain that discusses things?
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Similarly, Islam is never to blame for its outbreaks of sectarian violence. It's imperialism. It's oppression. It's lack of economic opportunities. It's anything but Islam. Islam is a religion of peace.
Please excuse this comparison, but you could make a near-identical objection to your responders if you were complaining about black people rioting.
Some versions of Islam could reasonably be described as religions of peace, but clearly the religion as a whole fails to be, despite that being a disappointment to many of its adherents.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: You're a bigot if you even question whether it has anything to do with Islamic theology.
You seem to start by asserting that rather than by questioning it. Perhaps like you start by asserting that too many guns or lax gun laws are the cause of gun violence, and don't think you should have to justify your position in the face of objections, because it's so obvious, so you wind up just repeating it over and over rather than address the substance of the objections? Just guessing based on what you do when tthe topic is Islam.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Yet there is imperialism, oppression and poverty everywhere in the world.
And where it's the worst, you get violence.
(January 6, 2015 at 11:29 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Hope this clears up what I am saying.
I think we're getting there.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.