(March 8, 2015 at 4:59 am)Nestor Wrote: My brother has spent quite a bit of time reading early church material and researching different hypotheses regarding the original sources for the gospels. He suggested to me the idea that all four gospels might have been working off an earlier narrative.
Critically examining the story of all four Gospels, I can't see why anyone thinks they're all written accounts of the same story. It seems to fit better if:
1. Mark came first, whether or not Mark had some sort of basis in a Historical Jesus.
2. Then Luke and Matt were fanfiction elaborations on Mark, adding a birth story and so on, but working separately so as to create contradictory narratives with one another, often going in opposite directions.
3. Then John comes along much later and offers a complete rewrite.
Re point #2, consider how Luke has Jesus' family come from Nazareth, had to go to Bethlehem for a highly problematic census, and then returned to Nazareth. Matt has Jesus' family come from Bethlehem, move to Egypt and then come to dwell in Nazareth.
The time when Jesus is born is also incompatible. Matt says Jesus was born under the reign of Herod the Great. Luke apparently goofs on his dates, as he has the conception during Herod's reign but Jesus was born during the administration of Quirinius of Syria, telling us that Jesus was born 10 years later. Those sons of God take longer to bake in the oven, it would seem.
There is simply no way these two were working off the same material when it came to the birth and childhood of Jesus. It seems more likely they were writing their own fanfictions, leaving later Christians to tie themselves into knots trying to reconcile the two.
John is a complete new story about a different character written for a different time. As I've said before, John's Jesus must contend with "The Jews", not the "Pharisees". This tells us it was written at a time when his Christian audience did not consider themselves to be a faction of Judaism but after Christianity had emerged as a separate religion completely.
John's depiction of Jesus is also theologically advanced, taking us closer to modern Christian ideas of the Trinity. The Synoptic Gospels depict a Jesus that is clearly separate from and subordinate to his "father". If you read only the Synoptic Gospels, you would come away with the impression that Jesus was a holy man or perhaps even a demigod. Jesus has an inferior bank of knowledge to his father ("no man knows the hour, not even the Son, but the Father only"), he has a separate and subordinate will ("Not as I will but as thou wilt"), and they speak of one another in 3rd person and to one another in 2nd person ("This is my son, hear ye him"). But John's Jesus claims equality with his father, "I and my father are one".
John's Jesus is bolder, more bombastic, and his re-write of the story reflects this. The Synoptic Jesus starts his ministry only once John the Baptist has left the stage but John's Jesus is not so timid. He virtually elbows JtB aside to take center stage, stealing JtB's disciples, beating him with a rival ministry and JtB cheers Jesus on the whole time. It really reads like a bad Marty Stu fanfic.
The Synoptic Gospels have Jesus start his ministry around the Sea of Galilee and make his way to Jerusalem, culminating in his triumphant entry on Palm Sunday, his cleansing of the temple and then fall and crucifixion. John's Jesus starts in Jerusalem and kicks off his ministry with the cleansing of the temple.
Quote:if we assume that Jesus really was crucified sometime around 30-33 C.E.I wanted to comment on these dates often offered as the dates of JC's crucifixion. They're too early if we take seriously the Gospel account that John the Baptist was put into prison either before or during JC's ministry.
John the Baptist was supposedly put into prison and executed for mouthing off about Herod Antipas' marriage to Herodius and his divorce with his previous wife, the daughter of Aratas IV. These dates are pretty well fixed in history with the drama that ensued. Aratas' daughter got wind of the coming divorce and fled to her father, who made war with Antipas. Antipas' forces were defeated and he plead with Rome for assistance. Roman forces arrived in 37 but their defeat of Aratas averted by the death of Caesar Tiberius.
So, putting it together, if Jesus was crucified in let's say as late as 33 CE, that would mean JtB was put into prison earlier than that, which means he would have mouthed off about the divorce/remarriage of Antipas earlier than that, which means the divorce happened earlier than that. Let's say 31 CE, which gives Jesus' ministry its minimum year between the arrest of JtB and Jesus' crucifixion. That would mean Aratas' daughter fled in 31 CE, Aratas twiddles his thumbs in 32 CE, he twiddles his thumbs in 33 CE, he twiddles his thumbs in 34 CE, he twiddles his thumbs in 35 CE and finally in 36 CE he gets outraged and says "ATTACK!" ...or the whole drama with the arrest of John the Baptist occurred closer to 36 CE.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist