(March 22, 2015 at 10:49 am)abaris Wrote:(March 22, 2015 at 10:38 am)Brian37 Wrote: Cut the fucking crap guys. This is about religion and if neither had been invented neither side would be fighting over it. This is unfortunately mundane human evolution going on and labels are what people hide behind to justify the "other" as being the outsider.
No, it's not. At least not originally. You should be old enough to remember that during the 70ies and early 80ies it was a nationalist conflict with hardly any religion coming into the mix. That only started to change after 1987 and the first Intifada. Both, Palestinians and (Zionist) jews were mostly secular and rather left leaning, with the Kibbuz movement nearly a communist experiment with no private property and sharing of the ressources.
Yes it is. Cherry picking individuals from either side who claim it isn't you certainly can. But please, if no one ever claimed Allah was a real god or Yahweh was a real god, there would not be this conflict.
The only thing reasonable to argue if those religions were not invented that some others would be invented in their place and those would be fought over.
Funny how the secular west, even with all it's imperfections has less a problem getting religious people to behave.
Now do not take that OP as some utopia where we get rid of religion as if you could. But you don't manage differences by ignoring the problem.
Race and culture and ethnic issues are what people use to hide behind the core problem. Both sides use this tactic and if they would accept it they would realize that secular pluralistic common law is much better than having social pecking orders written in law favoring one group over another.
"Just do it my way and we can get along" is rooted in religion. The sooner they both face it it will not matter if there are two states or one states, if they ever get to secular law(which Israel likes to claim it is but really is not) they would find the difference would still exist but be much more equal and manageable.
Israel would like to think it is completely secular but it has the same stupid attitude that both Christians on the left and right have with "Christian nation". Israel likes to hide behind race to avoid it is about religion. Netenyahu promised he would base state law on the Talmud. Now tell me how that book would represent Muslims outside treating them as pets at best.
In America the First Amendment is an anti monopoly law that says social pecking orders are banned based on issues of religion. It does not prevent religious people from partaking in government, it merely says it can not be used to include or exclude "no religious test".
Now lets say for Jews it is a race? I often here them point to China and say "They do it, why cant we". Sure they are right, but why wold you want to do that? The part HUMANS FORGET is that kind of lack of pluralism makes it hard for outsiders to be anything more than guests.
I am sure China loves guests, but merely as guests. If they want to even have a race based country they would have to know even if they managed to migrate to China, have a mixed kid, that kid would be a citizen of china, but because they are not pure, would have a harder time fitting in and almost impossible to run for public office.
Yes Israel does have Arabs and Muslim citizens. But is still a watered down social pecking order. It is religion doing this. And Arabs and Muslims also pull the same crap. I would only agree that between the two Israel is simply more westernized. But both want social pecking orders.
What is so hard to for humans to accept what is more important is civility through neutral law which protects everyone without giving secret winks to certain groups?
We are the same species and both sides are making the same mistakes regardless of which side is more stuck in the past than the other.
