(April 27, 2015 at 12:47 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: The argument is that we owe our existence to a Creator who intentionally and purposely created the universe to sustain life, the evidence is the fact we're alive and exist in a universe that has laws of physics that allowed the existence of stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets. Fair and impartial folks who read our respective arguments can weigh the evidence for themselves.
Secondly, I didn't claim it was impossible for a universe such as we observe to have been caused by mechanistic forces. In the original post I cited facts (also known as evidence) that supports the claim we owe our existence to unguided unplanned coincidence...
I don't even need to get into the specifics of that evidence here, as the problem with what you're saying lies directly in your framing: you're doing one of two things wrong, here. The first is that you're using the same observations (the universe) as evidence of two mutually exclusive propositions simultaneously, which is just bad logic. The second is that you're saying "the claim is that there's a creator, and the evidence is the universe," on one hand, while saying "the claim is that there need not be a creator, and the evidence is x, y, and z," on the other; put simply, you cannot use the laws of physics as evidence for a creator if you are not making the claim that those laws of physics are impossible without a creator, as in that case they do not imply a creator at all. You were able to point to specific observations for the other claim, which is what you should be doing, but you didn't do that for the first claim, because you've just acknowledged that the evidence for a creator may not require a creator. That evidence could equally be possible under the reverse claim, and you're offering no justification for using it in support of the one and not the other.
"The evidence is the laws of physics!"
"But haven't you just said that those same laws could be possible without that claim being true?"
"Indeed!"
"Then it seems like the laws of physics would be possible with or without your creator. It's not necessary for them, so how are they evidence for it?"
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!