Are some people truly better off believing?

[Dystopia]

Well, no, not me.  I'm not interested in any sort of 'truth' claims, I'm interested in what can be justified by evidence.  And there are plenty of atheists that are just as ignorant and dismissive of science as theists.

Possibly, but as you have just said you value what can be verified by evidence - Obviously this isn't an absolute objective truth and I never argued for it, but it is something you can reasonably assume to be probable, correct, rational and truthful.

I'm not criticizing people for being ignorant.  I wouldn't call an african child stupid or somehow worse for believing in his cultural fairy tales.  My statement is literally talking about the idea of faith and religion as a whole, not in any specific circumstance.  Verifiable, testable, useful methods of investigating the world and solving problems are simply better than fairy tales that end discovery rather than stimulate it.  Those people who are "ignorant due to poverty, marginalization, and because they don't understand science they think god created the world, etc" can be helped by the verifiable reliable and effective methods that I support.

I completely agree, but I don't think sane people would argue that religion can solve the world's problems - What do you mean by helped? Do you mean providing knowledge so that they stop believing, or solving their problems like hunger, poverty, etc? My idea here is that religion or just believing in higher forces can help people cope with pain, grief and anxiety - Sometimes it is inevitable and your brain doesn't stop believing.

Please do not make shit up.  I have never, ever on this forum said explicitly or implicitly than I think science can/will solve everything.  I've made it clear that I actually think there are issues that science will never solve.  I do not assume that, thank you very much.

Sorry

Well I never said science can replace all the effects of religion. I said that any (I'll soften the position to "most") positive effects of religion are not intrinsic to religion, and can be gotten in totally secular ways (sense of community, inclusiveness, support structures, etc).

No - The effects religion produces related to the supernatural and the specific communities based on a sect of beliefs about the world (etc.) are unique and can't be replaced by any social group - It's like saying a sports team can be replaced by a political party. I don't think religion would replace the love I have for politics (despite not belonging to any party I hang with several groups to debate politics) and vice-versa. But I'm interested in hearing what you think and how do you think the same effect could be achieved

Again, I'm not really interested in any sort of transcendent or objective 'truth' concept.  I care about what works to help people and progress society and technology and public health and ideas that actually help those people "ignorant due to poverty, marginalization, and because they don't understand science they think god created the world, etc".  And fairy tales don't do that except in the simplest, stopgap sense.

I never mentioned an objective truth concept, I'm referring to what's most likely/probable. I don't see about how one cancels the other. The Africa example is an extreme one and it was what I remembered when typing the reply but there's many first world cases I can point out on how someone believes in god for X or Y reasons and it helps them somehow. The example of oncologists is obvious, but there's many traumatic events that lead people to believe in something higher than themselves

Only if you consider 'rational' to mean 'based on what makes me feel good', then yes.  And if you're going to purport that 'what makes me feel good' is rational, then you've instantly given the most insane acts of barbarity and superstition the validation of being 'rational' because it made the participants 'happier'.

Are you telling me criminals and violent human beings don't rationalize their behaviour? Do you know that rapists think rape is ok and they are doing something right? Do you know serial killers plan ahead and they believe the rest of society is stupid for not allowing them to have pleasure? Do you know that thieves frequently rationalize an opportunity-cost economic equation to conclude the profit is worth the risk of going to jail? For obvious reasons most behaviours are rational/rationalized and the fact they're awful doesn't change anything.

Why do you think that people take drugs for pleasure? Obviously, it's because it makes them feel good.

I'll refer you to my previous comments about 'truth'.  And as to your "nurturing change everything" idea...that's the point.  And changing things in this world for the better, helping people, alleviating the ills of suffering, is only possible when people take an evidence-based, verifiable method of approaching these problems, not by fairy tales.  Telling starving children in Africa that they're going to heaven and that they're part of God's master plan might make those specific children 'happier', but it does not stop the problem of starving children.

I never argued otherwise but I still don't see how one cancels the other. It's not just nurturing, it's nature.