Very good discussion here. Very interesting. I have noticed that our dear Christian friends keep beating a dead horse.
Having been a Christian myself once, I am quite familiar with the arguments the theists are presenting. I am just not that impressed with them.
The reasons why revolve around facts and knowledge. I have since my slow long de-conversion learned some things and my knowledge base has expanded.
What I care about are facts, not necessarily what the Christians claim is "THE TRUTH." Truth is a dime a dozen. Facts stick around and are solid.
The history of Christianity, of which I have familiarized myself with, is full of interesting facts:
1. The Torah (Old Testament), a product of First Temple Judaism and the Babylonian Exile, was influenced by Sumerian and West Semitic culture. Clues from the Torah and from recent archaeological and DNA studies indicate that the Hebrews and Canaanites were from the same root stock of people and culture. The Hebrews were originally polytheists or at least henotheists. Monotheism evolved in Israel/Palestine with the ever growing power and influence of the priests of Yahweh (this was the second independent evolution of monotheism, the first was in Egypt ca. two centuries earlier by the Pharaoh Akhenaton, before the "Conquest of Canaan" ). It was during the Babylonian Exile period that Jews adopted and adapted certain myths from the Assyro-Babylonian religion and weaved them into their own (Adam, Eve, and Trees story, the Great Flood story, the confounding of one
language into many story, Nimrod is a play on words of Enmerkar, the King of Kish--all have their origins in the original Sumerian mythology). The Hellenistic Culture also had its
influence on the Jewish Culture of the 1st Century BCE and 1st Century CE.
2. The Early Christians, first and foremost before the Gentile influx into the religion, were Jews, thus, Christianity in its very beginnings was just another sect of Judaism, which grew
out of Second Temple Judaism. Second Temple Judaism during the 1st Century CE was influenced not only by its direct ancestor of First Temple Judaism, but also by the pagan
cultures of the Greeks and Egyptians.
3. The earliest Christians were not monolithic. From its very beginning there were many groups that evolved over the first 100 years of its existence, all had variations in belief. The
named groups include Nazarenes, Ebionites, Elkasites, Nicolaitans, Naasenes, Ophites, Carpocratians, etc., etc.
4. Early on there were three different varieties of the sect of the followers of Yeshua ben Yusef: Elkasites, Ebionites, and Nazarenes.
5. The Christology (nature of Jesus) was divided into several varieties, depending on which Early Christian group you were talking about: Jesus as a Davidic Messiah, or as a reincarnated being, or as a Messiah who was not divine (all of which were among the Jewish Christians); or even more complicated among the Gentile Christians: Gnosticism (the material world is bad, created by an evil god [the demiurge] of the Hebrew Bible, and that Jesus was the Savior spirit sent from the true god of light to liberate the souls trapped there through secret teachings); Adoptionism held that Jesus was born human and became divine only at his baptism when God adopted him; Docetism held that Jesus was pure spirit and did not have a body, his appearance in human form was thus an illusion and Jesus could not physically die. Pauline Christology held that Jesus was both divine and human at the same time. This Pauline Christology became the view of the Proto-orthodox Christians, who held other opinions of Christ's nature as heresy, later became the predominant theological view among Orthodox Christianity through both argument and force of arms.
6. The Nazarenes believed that Jesus was the Messiah that all Jews had been looking for. In the Jewish context, a messiah (Hebrew: mashiach, “anointed one”) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil. He was never considered by Jews to be God or a pre-existent divine being or Son of God. In its native Jewish context, the messiah was meant to be a future Jewish king from the royal Davidic line, who will be anointed with holy anointing oil, to be the king of God’s kingdom and rule the Jewish people during a Messianic Age. Belief in the eventual coming of a future messiah is a fundamental part of Judaism even today.
7. The Elkasites believed that Jesus was a simple prophet who had been born before many times and would be born again frequently in the future. This belief in reincarnation indicates that the Elkasites were evolving towards a Gnostic direction.
8. The Ebionites regarded Jesus as the Messiah but did not consider him divine. They also zealously followed the Law of Moses and revered Jerusalem as the holiest city. They restricted table fellowship only to Gentiles who converted to Judaism.
9. Christianity began splitting away from Second Temple Judaism around 70 CE and was completely a new religion by 135 CE, all the while Second Temple Judaism evolved into Rabbinic Judaism. The split was due to continuing tensions between traditional Judaism and Greco-Roman Culture as well as the Roman-Jewish conflicts (three wars) of the eastern Roman provinces.
10. In 144 CE Marcion, the founder of a somewhat gnostic Christianity known as Marcionism, was the first Christian to formulate a canon of scripture, called by the followers of Marcion the Gospel of the Lord. Today it is known as the Gospel of Marcion. It initiated the formation of the New Testament. Marcionism proved to be a great rival of the Proto-orthodox Christianity of Rome, which had excommunicated Marcion and declared his brand of Christianity heresy.
11. As Christianity continued to be spread it also continued to be more diverse. In the Roman province of Phrygia in Asia Minor Montanism sprung up. A charismatic prophetic movement of Christians led by Montanus and his associates Priscilla and Maximilla, it was well noted for its emotionalism. Called the New Prophecy, it was declared heresy in 177 by the Proto-orthodox Christians.
12. Between 150 to 160 the school of Gnostic Christianity called Valentinianism was founded by its namesake, Valentinian. He wrote The Gospel of the Truth. After his death Valentinianism became a major movemnt that seriously challenged Proto-orthodox Christianity. Valentinian Christology involved a godhead that was divided into three parts. This trinitarian concept is recognized by modern scholarship to be influenced by ancient Egyptian religious thought, as Valentinian was an Egyptian from Phrebonis who taught in Alexandria.
13. During the Crisis of the Third Century (235-284 CE) Christianity underwent stress through being persecuted, which led to internal strife. The Decian Pesecution of 250-251 resulted in Christians criticizing and accusing other Christians, mostly clerics, who gave in to imperial demands of citizenship. These were called lapsi, “those who have lapsed/fallen away.” This caused a rival papacy (anti-pope) and two schisms within the Church. The anti-pope was Novatian, who founded Novatianism. The Novatianists took a hard position against the lapsi when the Roman See sought reconciliation. Novatianism was considered by the Roman Church to be heresy.
14. In 301 Armenia became the first nation-state to adopt Christianity as its official religion during the reign of King Tiridates III the Great. A Christian community had been estabished there since the 1st Century CE but had largely reained a minority religion amidst the native pagan Armenians. Gregory the Iluminator was the missionary who convinced Tiridates to convert to Chritianity. Thereafter the King adopted a policy of aggressive conversion of his people, which resulted in a civil war that ended in his victory and the foundation of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
15. As a religion Christianity is like any other human institution in that it is subject to the same environmental forces that shape it and the same perspectives that study it. Christianity in its very beginnings was a Jewish sect, and had inherited some qualities it still shares with Judaism, mainly monotheism. As it gained more converts from the Gentile populations, it was also influenced by its surrounding cultural environment. Christian beliefs were shaped, either through direct borrowing or indirectly influenced by other pagan religious ideology and mythology. Directly from Zorastrianism or indirectly from the Essenes came the dualistic notion of the cosmic struggle of good and evil. The idea of Satan had been changed in its native Judaic environment as the right-hand angel of Yahweh to the Christian enemy of God. The idea of an immortal soul evolved first in Judaism as well as being influenced by Greek Platonism. The finality of death and the tarrying of the shades of the dead in an underworld Judaism shared with Assyro-Babylonian mythology. The Greek ideas of Hades as both a god and a place for all the dead as well as the myth of the imprisonment of the Titans in Tartarus and the Egyptian lake of fire of the underworld translated into the Christian idea of Hell. Nearly all religions have a class of spirit beings of some sort, so Judaism and Christianity have their angels. Depictions of angels as winged humanoids did not appear in Christian art until the 4th Century, but ideas of winged spirit beings from the iconography of Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and Assyrians no doubt had their influence. And ideas of the Apocalypse evolved from Hellenistic Judaism.
Having been a Christian myself once, I am quite familiar with the arguments the theists are presenting. I am just not that impressed with them.
The reasons why revolve around facts and knowledge. I have since my slow long de-conversion learned some things and my knowledge base has expanded.
What I care about are facts, not necessarily what the Christians claim is "THE TRUTH." Truth is a dime a dozen. Facts stick around and are solid.
The history of Christianity, of which I have familiarized myself with, is full of interesting facts:
1. The Torah (Old Testament), a product of First Temple Judaism and the Babylonian Exile, was influenced by Sumerian and West Semitic culture. Clues from the Torah and from recent archaeological and DNA studies indicate that the Hebrews and Canaanites were from the same root stock of people and culture. The Hebrews were originally polytheists or at least henotheists. Monotheism evolved in Israel/Palestine with the ever growing power and influence of the priests of Yahweh (this was the second independent evolution of monotheism, the first was in Egypt ca. two centuries earlier by the Pharaoh Akhenaton, before the "Conquest of Canaan" ). It was during the Babylonian Exile period that Jews adopted and adapted certain myths from the Assyro-Babylonian religion and weaved them into their own (Adam, Eve, and Trees story, the Great Flood story, the confounding of one
language into many story, Nimrod is a play on words of Enmerkar, the King of Kish--all have their origins in the original Sumerian mythology). The Hellenistic Culture also had its
influence on the Jewish Culture of the 1st Century BCE and 1st Century CE.
2. The Early Christians, first and foremost before the Gentile influx into the religion, were Jews, thus, Christianity in its very beginnings was just another sect of Judaism, which grew
out of Second Temple Judaism. Second Temple Judaism during the 1st Century CE was influenced not only by its direct ancestor of First Temple Judaism, but also by the pagan
cultures of the Greeks and Egyptians.
3. The earliest Christians were not monolithic. From its very beginning there were many groups that evolved over the first 100 years of its existence, all had variations in belief. The
named groups include Nazarenes, Ebionites, Elkasites, Nicolaitans, Naasenes, Ophites, Carpocratians, etc., etc.
4. Early on there were three different varieties of the sect of the followers of Yeshua ben Yusef: Elkasites, Ebionites, and Nazarenes.
5. The Christology (nature of Jesus) was divided into several varieties, depending on which Early Christian group you were talking about: Jesus as a Davidic Messiah, or as a reincarnated being, or as a Messiah who was not divine (all of which were among the Jewish Christians); or even more complicated among the Gentile Christians: Gnosticism (the material world is bad, created by an evil god [the demiurge] of the Hebrew Bible, and that Jesus was the Savior spirit sent from the true god of light to liberate the souls trapped there through secret teachings); Adoptionism held that Jesus was born human and became divine only at his baptism when God adopted him; Docetism held that Jesus was pure spirit and did not have a body, his appearance in human form was thus an illusion and Jesus could not physically die. Pauline Christology held that Jesus was both divine and human at the same time. This Pauline Christology became the view of the Proto-orthodox Christians, who held other opinions of Christ's nature as heresy, later became the predominant theological view among Orthodox Christianity through both argument and force of arms.
6. The Nazarenes believed that Jesus was the Messiah that all Jews had been looking for. In the Jewish context, a messiah (Hebrew: mashiach, “anointed one”) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil. He was never considered by Jews to be God or a pre-existent divine being or Son of God. In its native Jewish context, the messiah was meant to be a future Jewish king from the royal Davidic line, who will be anointed with holy anointing oil, to be the king of God’s kingdom and rule the Jewish people during a Messianic Age. Belief in the eventual coming of a future messiah is a fundamental part of Judaism even today.
7. The Elkasites believed that Jesus was a simple prophet who had been born before many times and would be born again frequently in the future. This belief in reincarnation indicates that the Elkasites were evolving towards a Gnostic direction.
8. The Ebionites regarded Jesus as the Messiah but did not consider him divine. They also zealously followed the Law of Moses and revered Jerusalem as the holiest city. They restricted table fellowship only to Gentiles who converted to Judaism.
9. Christianity began splitting away from Second Temple Judaism around 70 CE and was completely a new religion by 135 CE, all the while Second Temple Judaism evolved into Rabbinic Judaism. The split was due to continuing tensions between traditional Judaism and Greco-Roman Culture as well as the Roman-Jewish conflicts (three wars) of the eastern Roman provinces.
10. In 144 CE Marcion, the founder of a somewhat gnostic Christianity known as Marcionism, was the first Christian to formulate a canon of scripture, called by the followers of Marcion the Gospel of the Lord. Today it is known as the Gospel of Marcion. It initiated the formation of the New Testament. Marcionism proved to be a great rival of the Proto-orthodox Christianity of Rome, which had excommunicated Marcion and declared his brand of Christianity heresy.
11. As Christianity continued to be spread it also continued to be more diverse. In the Roman province of Phrygia in Asia Minor Montanism sprung up. A charismatic prophetic movement of Christians led by Montanus and his associates Priscilla and Maximilla, it was well noted for its emotionalism. Called the New Prophecy, it was declared heresy in 177 by the Proto-orthodox Christians.
12. Between 150 to 160 the school of Gnostic Christianity called Valentinianism was founded by its namesake, Valentinian. He wrote The Gospel of the Truth. After his death Valentinianism became a major movemnt that seriously challenged Proto-orthodox Christianity. Valentinian Christology involved a godhead that was divided into three parts. This trinitarian concept is recognized by modern scholarship to be influenced by ancient Egyptian religious thought, as Valentinian was an Egyptian from Phrebonis who taught in Alexandria.
13. During the Crisis of the Third Century (235-284 CE) Christianity underwent stress through being persecuted, which led to internal strife. The Decian Pesecution of 250-251 resulted in Christians criticizing and accusing other Christians, mostly clerics, who gave in to imperial demands of citizenship. These were called lapsi, “those who have lapsed/fallen away.” This caused a rival papacy (anti-pope) and two schisms within the Church. The anti-pope was Novatian, who founded Novatianism. The Novatianists took a hard position against the lapsi when the Roman See sought reconciliation. Novatianism was considered by the Roman Church to be heresy.
14. In 301 Armenia became the first nation-state to adopt Christianity as its official religion during the reign of King Tiridates III the Great. A Christian community had been estabished there since the 1st Century CE but had largely reained a minority religion amidst the native pagan Armenians. Gregory the Iluminator was the missionary who convinced Tiridates to convert to Chritianity. Thereafter the King adopted a policy of aggressive conversion of his people, which resulted in a civil war that ended in his victory and the foundation of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
15. As a religion Christianity is like any other human institution in that it is subject to the same environmental forces that shape it and the same perspectives that study it. Christianity in its very beginnings was a Jewish sect, and had inherited some qualities it still shares with Judaism, mainly monotheism. As it gained more converts from the Gentile populations, it was also influenced by its surrounding cultural environment. Christian beliefs were shaped, either through direct borrowing or indirectly influenced by other pagan religious ideology and mythology. Directly from Zorastrianism or indirectly from the Essenes came the dualistic notion of the cosmic struggle of good and evil. The idea of Satan had been changed in its native Judaic environment as the right-hand angel of Yahweh to the Christian enemy of God. The idea of an immortal soul evolved first in Judaism as well as being influenced by Greek Platonism. The finality of death and the tarrying of the shades of the dead in an underworld Judaism shared with Assyro-Babylonian mythology. The Greek ideas of Hades as both a god and a place for all the dead as well as the myth of the imprisonment of the Titans in Tartarus and the Egyptian lake of fire of the underworld translated into the Christian idea of Hell. Nearly all religions have a class of spirit beings of some sort, so Judaism and Christianity have their angels. Depictions of angels as winged humanoids did not appear in Christian art until the 4th Century, but ideas of winged spirit beings from the iconography of Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and Assyrians no doubt had their influence. And ideas of the Apocalypse evolved from Hellenistic Judaism.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."--Thomas Jefferson
