Hostage to fear

[Randy Carson]

No offense taken.

You're looking for evidence that God exists? How can I present physical evidence when God is pure spirit? Even when God did take on flesh, not many believed...though the miracles were performed before their eyes.

That's because that ancient culture didn't understand things the way we do.  If someone saw a man having a seizure and said "See, the devil's in him!"  That's wouldn't conflict with their understanding of the world around them.  If you transported a scientist who could medically induce a coma on someone, when the patient came to, most people would think you performed a miracle.  But "odd" things like "miracles" happened all the time, because that ancient culture had very little understanding of the world around them.  Physical laws seemed to be suspended all the time with things like earthquakes, etc.  If miracles were performed today, in Christ's name, like walking on water... believe me, people would convert.

Of course they would. But that IS the kind of miracle that Jesus performed, but despite that, you're walking away from Him. Why?

However, the physical resurrection of Christ suggests that his claims about being divine were legit. Why would He lie? Let me ask that another way: You love Christ, and He loves you beyond all measure. Why would He intentionally lie to you about being God?

I don't know that Christ loves me.  I never said that he did/does.  You made that assumption, and you can't know that.  The physical resurrection of a man who had been clinically dead for 3 days is impossible.  We've never seen it since.  I've seen all sorts of theories on how it could have literally happened, but it's probably one of the most improbable things in scripture.  Christ's story was embellished through the oral tradition, before the stories were written down.  I don't believe Christ would lie, I believe the first members of the Church would to win over converts.

Yes, it is impossible. No, we've never seen it since. Yes, it is improbable. But multiple eyewitnesses attested to the fact that it actually happened.

Now, if the disciples simply made up the story to win converts, why were they willing to die for something they knew was not true? When a gun was put to their heads, why didn't at least one of them say, "Okay, enough. I admit it...we made the whole thing up."

Lots of people are willing to die for what they believe in, but no one dies for what they know to be false. The disciples knew the resurrection was true, and they were willing to die for what they knew.

Now, imagine that God makes His presence known in a dramatic way that is unmistakable. You know He's God, and you know He's watching. How long would it be before you resented God for interfering in your affairs?

1) You don't know me, and your assuming I would resent God.  I've mixed diesel fuel and human feces in 55 gallon barrels and burned them on orders.  I didn't like it, but it was for good reason.  You'd be surprised what you'd do if there was good reason... even when no one's watching.  God is supposed to be the reason, but he has a history of not explaining anything.  Especially when it comes to killing your own child, until you almost do it... then he stops you.  But even when he told Abraham why.... it really wasn't a reason.

I disagree. I think God has told us why. Through the scriptures, through Sacred Tradition and through the Church.

But several people in this forum have specifically expressed the resentment that they would feel if they knew God was watching them all the time. Christopher Hitchens was very clear about this.

2) Give me a reason to believe that doesn't include holding the gun of "hell" to my head.

You speak of God not doing anything for humanity while the scientists are doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to curing diseases, etc. Great! God has given us the ability to develop technology and medicine to improve our lives. Animals were not given that ability, so thank you, Lord.

I used to think like that.  But then I remembered he "wrote a book"... with at least 360 points of contradiction (many more if you could holy tradition).  If God were really concerned about humanity out of love for us, perhaps he would have given us a book that contained medical and mental health science.  Wrote a guide to the literate on how to treat and prevent common diseases, that *DIDN'T* include shunning people from villages.  Maybe even scientific literature that would help us design optical glass for microscopes so that we could understand the very processes that keep people healthy (developing vaccines, etc.)

Sort of a field manual or textbook of some sort? Yeah, that might have been helpful.

OR (and I'm just spitballing here) maybe God could inspire a book that deals with some of the bigger issues we face in the few years we have here in preparation for the ETERNITY to come.

I'm gonna go with that.

But let's say for the sake of argument that God did begin to heal this one person...or prevent a murder of another. If He does that for one or two, wouldn't He be obligated to heal us all? To prevent every murder? Every rape? Every divorce? Eventually, our lives would be so free from suffering that we would consider a hangnail to be a great injustice requiring God's intervention? But at what point would God have to eliminate free will in order to accomplish this utopian existence? And if we are not morally free, and we are forced to serve and obey God, why would we love Him since we had no other choice?

No you see... he could empower us to prevent those things through his infinite knowledge, and his "unmistakable" presence (obvious to everyone) would be something worthy of worship.  His book could have empowered us... but instead, we get to learn how much whores love big penises and larger than average quantities of ejaculate (Ezekiel 23:20).  Instead we get to learn how pissy the most perfect man can be when a fig tree has no fruit (Matthew 21).  Instead we get to learn about just how primitive we were as a primates when it came to our female counterparts (Timothy 2:11).

Is that all you have gotten out of your reading of scripture? When is the last time you read the NT cover to cover?

The reason I came to an atheist forum is this; most atheists want to see people make rational decisions to increase their health and wellbeing, theists want people to get back in the pew... but only after apologizing for getting up in the first place.

Baloney. I want to see people make rational decisions by becoming Catholics.

PM me if the emptiness of your new unbelief finally sinks in. I'll be around.