RE: God: No magic required
January 18, 2014 at 5:03 pm
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2014 at 5:11 pm by lweisenthal.)
Hi Darkstar,
Firstly, thank you sincerely for the respectful tone and thoughtful and constructive reply.
I don't like offering nit-picky point-by point rejoinders; Anyway, I think that your points are stated clearly and I don't disagree with most of them.
The one thing that I'd continue to debate is the magnitude of the "stress" inflicted on atheists (and to only a lesser extent, secular agnostics) by the viewpoints of the Fox News viewership (less than 2,000,000 people out of more than 300,000,000) and even the entire religious wing of the Republican Party. We are a polarized society; there is a group of people who hate atheists, but this is the same group (including Rush Limbaugh) which is now criticizing Pope Francis as being a "Marxist."
The most objective information you offered to support your point of view (2nd of your links) of more general "persecution" was an 11 year old study from the University of Minnesota. This study reported that atheists were the least trusted of the various groups of people about which the respondents were polled. But, looking at the actual numbers, 54% of the respondents agreed that atheists "shared [the respondents'] view of society." I'm sure that a similar poll taken today (11 years later) would show that number to be up considerably. So a majority of Americans feel that atheists share their view of society. In the history of persecuted minorities, that's not so bad. The Catholic bishops claim that they are a persecuted minority. Atheists, Catholics, and Evangelicals all watch NFL football on big flat screens and drink craft beer while so doing. If they don't like football, they can choose between Hannity, Maher, Maddow, Limbaugh, Stuart, and so on. Life sure is tough for these persecuted minorities. I'm not an expert on the UK, but do I listen to the BBC most nights. Don't see a lot of evidence for anti-atheist bias there.
As I wrote, I "passed" for an atheist for more than 40 years. I can't think of any unusual "stress" that I felt because of this. On the other hand, if one wishes to assert one's Constitutional right to be publicly critical of the majority (i.e. and in so doing to express actual intolerance, sarcasm, etc.), then one should realistically expect to get some blow back. I voluntarily submitted my present points of view on a discussion group populated mainly by atheists. I was prepared for blow back. So any atheist who (like Bill Maher, for example) chooses to make public derogatory remarks against religious people should realistically expect blow back, as well.
When it comes to the ACLU or whomever challenging some aspect of public religiosity, a vocal of minority of people feels personally threatened, and they make a lot of noise. But they are fighting a losing battle and everyone knows this. So you guys are actually winning the current culture wars. What's there to feel stressed about, much less persecuted?
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Firstly, thank you sincerely for the respectful tone and thoughtful and constructive reply.
I don't like offering nit-picky point-by point rejoinders; Anyway, I think that your points are stated clearly and I don't disagree with most of them.
The one thing that I'd continue to debate is the magnitude of the "stress" inflicted on atheists (and to only a lesser extent, secular agnostics) by the viewpoints of the Fox News viewership (less than 2,000,000 people out of more than 300,000,000) and even the entire religious wing of the Republican Party. We are a polarized society; there is a group of people who hate atheists, but this is the same group (including Rush Limbaugh) which is now criticizing Pope Francis as being a "Marxist."
The most objective information you offered to support your point of view (2nd of your links) of more general "persecution" was an 11 year old study from the University of Minnesota. This study reported that atheists were the least trusted of the various groups of people about which the respondents were polled. But, looking at the actual numbers, 54% of the respondents agreed that atheists "shared [the respondents'] view of society." I'm sure that a similar poll taken today (11 years later) would show that number to be up considerably. So a majority of Americans feel that atheists share their view of society. In the history of persecuted minorities, that's not so bad. The Catholic bishops claim that they are a persecuted minority. Atheists, Catholics, and Evangelicals all watch NFL football on big flat screens and drink craft beer while so doing. If they don't like football, they can choose between Hannity, Maher, Maddow, Limbaugh, Stuart, and so on. Life sure is tough for these persecuted minorities. I'm not an expert on the UK, but do I listen to the BBC most nights. Don't see a lot of evidence for anti-atheist bias there.
As I wrote, I "passed" for an atheist for more than 40 years. I can't think of any unusual "stress" that I felt because of this. On the other hand, if one wishes to assert one's Constitutional right to be publicly critical of the majority (i.e. and in so doing to express actual intolerance, sarcasm, etc.), then one should realistically expect to get some blow back. I voluntarily submitted my present points of view on a discussion group populated mainly by atheists. I was prepared for blow back. So any atheist who (like Bill Maher, for example) chooses to make public derogatory remarks against religious people should realistically expect blow back, as well.
When it comes to the ACLU or whomever challenging some aspect of public religiosity, a vocal of minority of people feels personally threatened, and they make a lot of noise. But they are fighting a losing battle and everyone knows this. So you guys are actually winning the current culture wars. What's there to feel stressed about, much less persecuted?
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
