(May 28, 2009 at 10:31 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: I don't have time to read all this, but I remember talking with EvF about this a while ago.
I too don't believe in free will. To start with, no free will, like EvF said, should be the default. The idea of free will is something so typical of humans. So many of us feel like we are robots without free will. We feel like we HAVE to have free will or we are not human. I used to feel like this, but after thinking about it, I realised it's purely a human conception. The idea is a waste of time.
I don't believe in it. I don't care who does believe in it. It's a non-issue, because in the end, both the determinists and non-determinists will still out the door, seemingly making 'choices'. The fuss over the whole issue is totally exxagerated. Whether we believe in free will or not, we will for the most part, continue to act and live in the exact same way. Because whether you believe in it or not, life goes on.
I agree with that....EXCEPT that you seem to be supporting determinism but whether you are or not I myself am an INdeterministic and I maintain that while DETERMINISM makes free will IMPOSSIBLE there is still no evidence of, or reason to believe in 'free will' whatsoever that *I* know of. So free will is NO more PROBABLE with INdeterminism than determinism...except simply that the MERE POSSIBILITY is open.
(May 28, 2009 at 11:55 am)Darwinian Wrote: How exactly are we defining 'free will' here?
I'm defining it as the ability to actually MAKE choices as in deliberately and intentionally CHOOSE what we DO and choose our own THOUGHTS .....voluntarily....
As opposed to NO free will which is without that....whether we BELIEVE we make choices, 'choose our own thoughts' OR have 'free will' or not. The belief is not reason to believe in the truth of the belief. That's circular reasoning.
Belief in 'free will' is not evidence of free will...why believe is what I wonder? Why?
Quote:At the moment I'm sitting here wondering if I should have either ravioli or steak for dinner.
The following statements are based upon belief and not evidence
When I do eventually make a decision it will be my choice and no-one else's.
How so?
You believe it's your choice....why? You think stuff...you 'make choices' in the sense you CALL it choices...but what reason do you have to believe that you actually DO have a choice in that matter? Simply CALLING it 'making choices' does not mean you DO have a choice and simply BELIEVING IN 'free wil' does not mean 'free will' exists - that's circular reasoning.
Quote:I have complete freedom to choose either one or the other or in fact, something else.
Once again - How so? (see above response for more detail).
End of contentious statements
Quote:Are you (and when I say 'you' I mean all those who think free will doesn't exist) saying that when I make my decision it wasn't actually mine at all but simply an illusion. And if it wasn't my choice, who's was it?
Well it was your decision in the sense that you are 'doing stuff' and you BELIEVE it's your decision and that you have a choice in the matter. I know of no reason to believe that you actually DO have a choice in the matter though....so in that sense I believe it's not your choice...I don't believe in 'free will' because I know of no reason to believe in it whatsover (IOW I know of no evidence of the TRUTH of it whatsoever...but you don't like the word 'evidence' in this context it seems...but all I'm saying is I need a valid reason to believe 'free will' is actually TRUE! So in that sense I 'need evidence' for that belief before I believe it!
Quote:What are the processes that went into that decision that all these years I thought were me?
I do not know the reasons why people believe in free will....they're probably evolutional and psychological reasons - I'd say people want to take credit for what they do...but not just that - the fact that they ARE doing stuff makes it intuitive and seem entirely plausible that it IS their choice and so they take credit for it....
But in all seriousness....how is belief in 'free will' remote reason to believe in the truth of it? That's circular reasoning...I think it is simply NATURAL to believe in it. I know of no actual logical reason (or IOW any 'evidence' of the TRUTH of it whatsoever).
(May 28, 2009 at 3:20 pm)Darwinian Wrote: My mistake was misinterpreting Ev's CAPITALS for shouting and his swearing for insults. In my mind I had the image of a person shouting and swearing at me and so didn't pay too much attention to the post itself.
Well none of the swearing was directed AT YOU....none were ad homs and none were personal. So I do not understand why you took them for insults - perhaps because you didn't pay much attention to the post as you said? Because I never directed any swear words AT YOU. There were no ad homs there...and I take nothing personal from you either
And the thing is with the caps... - I don't know whether you've noticed with my posts much....but I REGULARLY use caps for EMPHASIS (like right there lol).
EvF
