Prayer?

[Skepsis]

This is your problem, the sin choices we make ARE the Plan, along with attonement for said sins.

I believe that I can make a case against the justice of your God.
Hell is a pit of fire, in effect. Wicked fire, lake of fire, burning, gnashing of teeth, etc.
Everything anyone ever does is part of God's plan. Sin was part of his plan, as was hell. However, the fact that hell coexists with an "ultimate plan" means that God is unjust. Why?
The ultimate plan, as we can see from observing the world around us, involves sending people to hell for disbelief. A just God wouldn't set up an ultimate plan where he essentially "programmed" unbelievers to reject him, then send this group to hell. That is the pinnacle of injustice.

The other 1/2 of your problem.. Sin seperates us from God. If you want to return then you must seperate yourself from sin, per the attonement offered by Christ.

Sin was part of his "program". If we would act this way regardless of whether or not we think we are making our own choices, we have nothing to atone for.

If there was.. you would have lost the only choice you truly had in this life. That is why He hides Himself from unbelievers.

But... there is no choice. You said so yourself. If we don't believe it is part of his plan. Why not reveal himself? There would still be those that reject him.

If God didn't program you to accept the attonement offered, then the 'implications' you alluded to are meaningless. Meaning we are free to accept or refuse as we see fit. (per your own admission)

Actually, it's just the opposite. If everything is part of God's plan, then there are people "programmed" to accept and deny his existence. We can't accept or refuse. We are all simply following his plan.

I am NOT formulating a question against the nature of your God. I'll make this very, very clear to you so it doesn't escape even you:
If the God of your bible purportedly acted on something physical, that is, committed to a course of action that had an effect on the physical world, then he just moved from "untestable bible's domain" to "testable, physical domain". Overlapping magisteria.
Therefore, it isn't beyond my authority to ask for evidence beyond that of the Bible to prove an extra-biblical event.

NOT if it is the same bible who recorded the very event being questioned.

Actually, I am justified in asking for evidence beyond the Bible if the event described supposedly happened in reality. Get it into your head that I am not questioning something that can only be commentated on by the bible, because the Bible has passed the border into the real world and is thus testable/verifiable.
It puts it well with in the same domain, in which God and the events surrounding His actions concerning His expressed will (pre law) have been established in the first place.
[/quote]
I am not questioning whether or not your bible says it happened. I am questioning whether it happened or not. Just because the actions are taken by your God doesn't mean they aren't testable if they crossed the line into an event you affirm occurred in the past.

you take away the bible to provide you an answer, you take away your right to question God. For without it you can not question Him nor any of his actions. (pre or post Law)

I am not questioning God or his actions. I am questioning the existence of prophets or people who said they saw "God" in the far past and believed that God to be your own. Seriously, it took this long for you to get that? I haven't moved the goalposts a single inch. Your perception of the goalposts is the problem.

The 'plan' was to put us in an enviorment free from the direct knoweledge of Him allowing us to live as our hearts would demand. Then offer attonement to anyone who earnestly sought after it. That's it. the rest is a direct consenquence of our (limited) choices in life.

You already said we don't have free will- err... freedom of choice, and the we are essentially slaves to sin. Either he planned it all, or we can choose. Which is it?

Because I know Death not to be the 'worst' thing that could happen to someone. that pain and suffering makes us who we are. that living a life of indulgences litterally Spoils (makes rotten) one very soul. I love God because He has carfully and thoughtfully carried me through many hardships and trials. Pain and suffering has given me perspective and wisdom beyond my station.

I'll bet the starving around the globe love him for his trials too. Your "trials" at least don't involve certain death, loss of loved ones at young ages, and a constant need for things you can't have.

Have you tried it?

I had an imaginary friend once, but he wasn't all powerful and I didn't expect him to help me with anything. I kept him to myself, and he only lasted a short time. If I believed him to love me and be powerful enough to help me with anything, I would have believed it impossible to get through suffering with a loving imaginary friend. Why? He wouldn't be loving.

As i said i made this thread because many of you have lost faith for unanswered prayers, and i wanted to establish what prayer actually was. The fact that you can read this entire thread and still call what amounts to a formal wishing cermony a 'traditional prayer' puts a doubt in my mind as to your general comperhensive skills. that is why i needed clarity to what you were actually refering to.

I clarified to avoid this... Not traditional, I said. This is simply what most people think of when they pray. Your version of prayer is indistinguishable from talking to yourself and yields no answer, ever.
Oh, and my comperhensive skills are just fine, thank you (whatever those are).

i contend for the dead it matters very little.

Well, I never thought- we agree. Neat.

indeed care to rephrase?

Your version of prayer is very much like a "no" to a prayer as defined by the average joe. Your prayers consist of "Please God, do what you were going to do in the first place. I love you, btw. Amen".
Regular prayer consists of "God, I know how selfish this is, but please cure my brother's leukemia. Amen"
See how a no to a "regular prayer" is the same as your prayer? Both serve no purpose. Both yield no result. Your prayer is absolutely meaningless, because nothing comes of it and it means nothing to a God that already has your path set out for you.