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God: No magic required
RE: God: No magic required
(February 24, 2015 at 4:17 pm)lweisenthal Wrote: When athletes pray before a competition, they do not do so for the approbation of their peers but for spiritual performance enhancement. I think that this is the most visible modern day illustration that religion arises more from innate individual longing than from forced conformity to societal norms, e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13575702.
It would be a bit presumptuous to infer that all players are praying for "spiritual" performance enhancement, wouldn't it? If someone is running late to a meeting, and pray for a parking space close to the door along the way, I think you'd agree that their motive was to get an advantage afforded to them by God and that they do this because the are under the impression that they stand in Gods good favor. Before the Super Bowl, both teams pray, and whatever words they choose to construct their prayer, such as "God give us the strength of spirit", that part of the request doesn't explain the motive for asking. They're asking for God to give them an advantage. If they win, that's who they'll thank. And every post-game interview will have someone who attributes their win to God. The other team will just assume it wasn't Gods will, and start praying for the next season. But surely they are in no position to impose their human desires on such petty things as football games. If Gods will is all that matters, and the desire for spiritual strength is all that's being desired, what other motive is there to ask but for a selfish advantage? But with regards to why so many of them think this way, nothing about this suggests that they suddenly began doing it one day as a way of answering an internal desire. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of them, if not all of them were brought up in families who practice the same rituals. Perhaps the only thing that can be reasonably extracted from this example is that competitors will always look to exploit any possible advantage that they believe to be freely available to them. They also wear lucky socks, carry good luck charms, and some of them attribute success to a pattern of eating the same meal before each game. However, their belief that these things work and the truth about whether or not they actually work are two completely different things.




(February 24, 2015 at 4:17 pm)lweisenthal Wrote: But focusing on the doctrines is simply missing out on the possibility of perceiving the forest because of an obsession with the trees.

I can appreciate the sentiment behind what you've just said, but I question your sincerity. I found it interesting that you expressed these two thoughts because I think you've overlooked a detail that is common to both the Athletes motive and your own. The doctrines are what separates you from a Hindu, or a Muslim. If it weren't for the doctrine written in what you believe to be the holy gospel, you would have no basis for using the title "Christian". Let's say I go along with this idea and agree that being a Christian is really something entirely apart from the gospel. I'm sure that we could agree on a lot of things that have nothing to do with reading the bible. We could agree on the value of human life, charity, goodwill, the beauty of everything around us and the importance of preserving it for as many others as we could. If this were the case, then you could consider me to be a Christian Right now too. But I want you to acknowledge that while we could in fact share all of these values, there's a reason I'm an Atheist and you're a Christian and not a one of these values are what makes the distinction. Note that I can value all of these things without any doctrinal encouragement but there are still layers that need to be pulled back. Some people have tuned out all of the details that make up the fabric of their respective religion. The focus is only on the values and virtues that connect across aisles of all religious or secular boundaries and find their position to be perfectly lucid through this perspective. But from where Im looking, as a former devout Christian, all you see are the trees. You are not only standing in a giant diverse forest, but it is one of many forests that makeup the entirety of human existence, and that landscape is but a smudge on a map compared to the vastness of the universe that is filled with mystery and questions worthy of pursuit. I agree, the doctrines don't matter. What makes me question your sincerity is this: Why are you still clinging to it? If I can believe that the preservation of life, goodness, charity and all other values ought to be pursued without a doctrine, why is it that you do not jettison this book that we both agree to be unnecessary? I suspect motives are at play again. The football player does not pray for the virtue of praying and spiritual connection. He does it because he thinks it's an advantage. If being good for the sake of being good isn't enough to do it, could you appeal to something else that perhaps motivates them? Blessings from a God in their life, perhaps? And afterlife in eternal bliss as a reward, maybe? Could you appeal to their fears? In much the same way a prisoner on death row might be persuaded to seek out a possible advantage they believe to be available, could you motivate them to comply by convincing them that a harsh consequence awaits them if they do not? Absolutely. What separates us are what we believe not only about doctrines, but what we believe about ourselves. I believe I should do good because I am empathetically connected to the world through my own experience. I feel virtues rather than believe them. That is what motivates me. I do it for the sake of doing it. When I am charitable, I do it in private. When I am generous I don't seek retribution. There's nothing in my life to wrongly interpret as a divine gift because the acts and virtues are gifts in and of themselves. I gave up the doctrine when I no longer felt the need to seek out an advantage that I could not provide for myself. I take responsibility for my actions rather than carrying around a sack of artificial guilt. If I do wrong I try to right the wrong with those effected by it, the belief that my actions are in some way virtuous if they are validated by a higher power no longer motivates me. You may want to consider your motives because I don't think you can say that you're a Christian for the sake of being Christian alone. That would imply some very serious weaknesses toward your ethical IQ. If you're not a football player, what's your motive?
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Messages In This Thread
God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 16, 2014 at 9:47 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Minimalist - January 16, 2014 at 9:50 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by truthBtold - January 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Darkstar - January 16, 2014 at 10:06 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by h4ym4n - February 25, 2015 at 11:03 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Kayenneh - January 16, 2014 at 10:07 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by KichigaiNeko - January 16, 2014 at 10:12 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by truthBtold - January 16, 2014 at 10:12 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Faith No More - January 16, 2014 at 10:32 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Cinjin - January 16, 2014 at 10:42 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by MindForgedManacle - January 16, 2014 at 11:15 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - January 16, 2014 at 11:46 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by max-greece - January 17, 2014 at 12:08 am
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 17, 2014 at 4:06 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 17, 2014 at 8:19 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 3:54 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - January 17, 2014 at 11:13 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 18, 2014 at 3:20 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Darkstar - January 18, 2014 at 4:13 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 18, 2014 at 5:03 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Darkstar - January 18, 2014 at 5:30 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - January 18, 2014 at 6:44 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 25, 2014 at 5:19 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Mr Greene - January 28, 2014 at 4:26 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - February 2, 2014 at 10:41 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Mudhammam - January 17, 2014 at 3:10 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Napoléon - January 17, 2014 at 9:13 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by KichigaiNeko - January 17, 2014 at 9:15 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Minimalist - January 17, 2014 at 9:23 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 17, 2014 at 9:53 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Ryantology - January 17, 2014 at 10:55 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Kayenneh - January 18, 2014 at 1:58 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by LastPoet - January 18, 2014 at 2:26 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Kayenneh - January 18, 2014 at 2:43 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Minimalist - January 18, 2014 at 2:46 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 18, 2014 at 6:18 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Simon Moon - January 28, 2014 at 3:22 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 28, 2014 at 3:30 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Foxaèr - January 28, 2014 at 3:59 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 28, 2014 at 4:28 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Foxaèr - January 28, 2014 at 4:33 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by LastPoet - January 28, 2014 at 4:43 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 28, 2014 at 5:23 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Foxaèr - January 28, 2014 at 5:29 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Simon Moon - January 28, 2014 at 5:58 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Simon Moon - January 28, 2014 at 5:06 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by LastPoet - January 18, 2014 at 2:50 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Kayenneh - January 18, 2014 at 5:09 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 18, 2014 at 5:45 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by pineapplebunnybounce - January 18, 2014 at 5:49 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Kayenneh - January 18, 2014 at 6:18 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Kayenneh - January 18, 2014 at 8:34 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Neo-Scholastic - January 25, 2014 at 8:14 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 25, 2014 at 10:48 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Mudhammam - January 26, 2014 at 2:06 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Mister Agenda - February 3, 2014 at 4:07 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - January 26, 2014 at 1:40 am
RE: God: No magic required - by max-greece - January 26, 2014 at 3:36 am
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 27, 2014 at 4:22 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by max-greece - January 28, 2014 at 3:02 am
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 28, 2014 at 2:51 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 4:14 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - January 27, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 27, 2014 at 6:19 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Neo-Scholastic - January 28, 2014 at 12:16 am
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 28, 2014 at 2:40 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Thackerie - April 5, 2014 at 10:56 am
RE: God: No magic required - by fr0d0 - April 5, 2014 at 11:06 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Foxaèr - January 28, 2014 at 3:00 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 28, 2014 at 3:21 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Foxaèr - January 28, 2014 at 3:23 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 28, 2014 at 7:12 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Simon Moon - January 28, 2014 at 9:23 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Neo-Scholastic - January 28, 2014 at 7:53 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Ryantology - January 28, 2014 at 9:39 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Mudhammam - January 29, 2014 at 1:07 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Esquilax - January 29, 2014 at 1:24 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Neo-Scholastic - January 28, 2014 at 10:55 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - January 29, 2014 at 2:57 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Ryantology - January 28, 2014 at 11:05 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by max-greece - January 29, 2014 at 3:10 am
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 31, 2014 at 6:49 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Simon Moon - January 31, 2014 at 7:31 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - January 31, 2014 at 9:51 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Mister Agenda - February 3, 2014 at 4:20 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by max-greece - February 1, 2014 at 1:42 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - February 1, 2014 at 4:40 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Popsicle - February 2, 2014 at 11:23 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by The Reality Salesman - January 30, 2014 at 2:46 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - January 31, 2014 at 10:57 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - February 1, 2014 at 2:11 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - February 1, 2014 at 1:16 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - February 1, 2014 at 2:20 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Assimilate - February 1, 2014 at 2:25 am
RE: God: No magic required - by The Reality Salesman - February 1, 2014 at 12:02 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - February 1, 2014 at 10:00 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - February 2, 2014 at 12:57 am
RE: God: No magic required - by The Reality Salesman - February 2, 2014 at 1:40 am
RE: God: No magic required - by max-greece - February 2, 2014 at 4:18 am
RE: God: No magic required - by houseofcantor - February 2, 2014 at 4:59 am
RE: God: No magic required - by max-greece - February 2, 2014 at 5:28 am
RE: God: No magic required - by houseofcantor - February 2, 2014 at 5:50 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - February 2, 2014 at 9:36 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - February 2, 2014 at 11:50 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - February 3, 2014 at 2:04 am
RE: God: No magic required - by The Reality Salesman - February 3, 2014 at 12:18 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Popsicle - February 3, 2014 at 2:35 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - February 3, 2014 at 4:06 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Popsicle - February 3, 2014 at 4:17 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Mudhammam - February 3, 2014 at 4:43 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - April 1, 2014 at 3:13 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - April 1, 2014 at 4:21 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Jackalope - April 1, 2014 at 4:33 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Chas - April 1, 2014 at 6:20 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Simon Moon - April 1, 2014 at 8:00 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - April 1, 2014 at 8:49 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by houseofcantor - April 2, 2014 at 7:27 am
God: No magic required - by Rampant.A.I. - April 1, 2014 at 3:22 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - April 1, 2014 at 3:41 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Minimalist - April 1, 2014 at 4:05 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - April 1, 2014 at 5:02 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Jackalope - April 1, 2014 at 5:09 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by fr0d0 - April 1, 2014 at 8:28 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - April 1, 2014 at 8:48 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Minimalist - April 1, 2014 at 8:21 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Thackerie - April 5, 2014 at 11:09 am
RE: God: No magic required - by fr0d0 - April 5, 2014 at 12:29 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Thackerie - April 6, 2014 at 10:20 am
RE: God: No magic required - by max-greece - April 2, 2014 at 1:20 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Minimalist - April 2, 2014 at 1:21 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - April 2, 2014 at 12:02 pm
God: No magic required - by Rampant.A.I. - April 2, 2014 at 1:55 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 2, 2014 at 8:47 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - April 2, 2014 at 11:15 am
RE: God: No magic required - by ThomM - April 4, 2014 at 3:17 pm
God: No magic required - by Rampant.A.I. - April 5, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: God: No magic required - by fr0d0 - April 6, 2014 at 2:27 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Thackerie - April 6, 2014 at 3:07 pm
God: No magic required - by Rampant.A.I. - April 6, 2014 at 3:21 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - November 7, 2014 at 2:53 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Esquilax - November 7, 2014 at 3:16 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - November 7, 2014 at 3:31 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Esquilax - November 7, 2014 at 4:07 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by robvalue - November 7, 2014 at 4:34 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Angrboda - November 7, 2014 at 6:19 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - November 7, 2014 at 6:47 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - November 11, 2014 at 8:51 am
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - November 8, 2014 at 5:44 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Esquilax - November 8, 2014 at 7:03 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - November 11, 2014 at 9:23 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Tonus - November 11, 2014 at 8:59 am
RE: God: No magic required - by robvalue - November 11, 2014 at 4:54 am
RE: God: No magic required - by strawdawg - November 11, 2014 at 4:12 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by rexbeccarox - November 11, 2014 at 4:50 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Mudhammam - February 24, 2015 at 4:21 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - February 24, 2015 at 4:26 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by lweisenthal - February 24, 2015 at 4:17 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by The Reality Salesman - February 24, 2015 at 5:45 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - February 24, 2015 at 9:48 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Faith No More - February 24, 2015 at 6:35 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by IATIA - February 24, 2015 at 7:13 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Mudhammam - February 24, 2015 at 9:57 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by Ravenshire - February 24, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by The Reality Salesman - February 24, 2015 at 11:59 pm
RE: God: No magic required - by dyresand - February 25, 2015 at 12:03 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Norman Humann - February 25, 2015 at 10:34 am
RE: God: No magic required - by Whateverist - February 26, 2015 at 1:42 pm

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