The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Chad32]

There is no contradiction in my thinking. Just because I don't believe in an absolute right or wrong, doesn't mean I have absolutely no basis for right or wrong. You think your god's opinion of right and wrong is absolute, despite the fact that when morality comes from someone it is subjective by definition. Your response is to just say it isn't because god is different. Different how? Different because he's on top? Might makes right, and we can't do anything about it, so we might as well agree with him.

Judging someone as evil doesn't mean I instinctively know he exists, any more than judging any other character in any other book as evil. Or good. Or somewhere in between. I think Batman is awesome. It doesn't make him real, any more than me thinking The Joker is evil.

We're at a standstill now. You claim subjective morals have no meaning because they are subjective, while stating god's morals are objective despite them coming from him instead of just something he abides by himself. I disagree on both, and neither of us is making progress convincing the other. We're just going to have to call this a draw.

If I said that you have not bases for your right and wrong I apologize you do, but your base is not a good one and if you are going to be intellectually honest with yourself you would have to come to the conclusion that in your world view there is no right and wrong.

God is different because He was never created and always was pure and never changes. Some other parts of God's characteristics are the He is holy good and righteous, He has absolutely no evil in Him. When God made the human race He made us in His image. So His qualities are instinctively built into our being. When someone defames the image of God, let say by lying, we see it as wrong because it is in opposition to our God given nature. Just like we know that there is something wrong with a person who is missing a leg. We don't think that it is some new from of evolution because we know that humans were made to have two legs. You know what is wrong in the physical but when it come to morals it is more convenient to say that morals are subjective so as to never have to come to terms with your own sin. God's has given us an opportunity to live an abundant and full life if you would repent for your sins and accept His sacrifice on th cross for your sins. Through this we are made whole and come to life to the realities that we instinctively know and can experience new life in the love and power of God.

I am saying that if there are only subjective morales without absolute morals on which to judge its worth they become meaningless. When you say there is only subjective moral you are treating morals like certain flavor of food. One person likes spicy another likes sweet. We don't hear people say that it is morally wrong to like spicy because that would be silly. Yet we all know what we ought to do and ought not do and it has nothing to do with whither we like to or not.

I can't say that it is a draw but if you wish to step out of the conversation I understand I would just hope you throughly reviewed your beliefs.

There is no better way to know right from wrong than to see the kinds of things that consistently have a positive or negative effect on the world, then encourage things that have a positive effect while discouraging those that have a negative effect. No one is bringing back slavery in developed countries, despite the bible saying slavery is fine. Or that it's ok to kill groups of people in the streets for not following the bible. These are wrong, and it should be obvious why.

So what if god was never created, is pure, and never changes? None of those things mean you're automatically right. Psychopaths can be pure, and never change as well. Purity is not always a virtue, and neither is stubbornness. Where do you get the idea that he has no evil in him? Because he says he's good, and defines what evil is? That's very convenient. He's lucky he's more powerful than the things he creates. That may be the smartest thing he's ever done. make sure his creation can't successfully rebel against him.

His qualities are instinctively built into our being. I can see that. He has some negative qualities that many humans share. Violence being a big one.

I can come to terms with my flaws, and if I'm judged I can take responsibility from them. I don't call Yahweh evil through some attempts at escaping my problems.

No, they don't become meaningless. They do change over time with new information, but that's a strength. Not a weakness. Otherwise we'd still be treating women like chattel, valued mainly by their virginity. It's not about what we like and don't like. It's about what does and doesn't work for society. Equal rights works for society. Starting wars over the way we interpret a book does not.

I have reviewed my beliefs. that's why they changed over time. Just because my beliefs are subjective, though, doesn't mean there's no point in contemplating moral issues.