(December 10, 2015 at 11:40 am)Irrational Wrote:(December 10, 2015 at 10:38 am)SteveII Wrote: So what properties must such a cause of the universe possess? As the cause of space and time, it must transcend space and time and therefore exist timelessly and non-spatially (at least without the universe). This transcendent cause must therefore be changeless and immaterial because (1) anything that is timeless must also be unchanging and (2) anything that is changeless must be non-physical and immaterial since material things are constantly changing at the molecular and atomic levels. Such a cause must be without a beginning and uncaused, at least in the sense of lacking any prior causal conditions, since there cannot be an infinite regress of causes.Therefore, that transcendent cause could not have been a changeless God. If the cause needed to have a mind in order to create, then it must have mindfully planned the creation of the universe. But such mindful planning requires the mind to move on to the next step in the series of ideas. This implies change.
Otherwise, if God did not mindfully plan the universe into existence, then the creation of the universe was mindless (i.e., random and spontaneous). But in this case, why call it God? Why not just stick to the simpler explanation that the universe came into existence randomly and spontaneously.
All that is needed is that God be self-conscious. There would be no need of a temporal component. It is not like he needed to learn things along the way. He would he simply have known all truths.
Quote:Quote:Ockham’s Razor (the principle that states that we should not multiply causes beyond necessity) will shave away any other causes since only one cause is required to explain the effect. This entity must be unimaginably powerful, if not omnipotent, since it created the universe without any material cause.
Powerful suggests personhood in this context. However, the cause need not be personal. It just needs to have the capacity to yield universes randomly and spontaneously.
And Ockham's Razor itself suggests that God is not the best explanation since an extra entity like God, being beyond this reality, isn't really needed.
Are you suggesting that the universe needed no cause or that the causal chain was past infinite? Neither is logically sound.
Quote:2. If nothing can logically arise from nothingness, then not even God himself can form anything from nothingness.
But perhaps a much better solution to this "dilemma" would be that the cause in the form of this whole reality is eternal and universes have always emerged as a result. In this case, the cause has always occurred with effects, unlike the case with WLC's God.
So, conclusion: a personal and mindful God has not been shown to be necessary for the existence of this universe.
You are confusing an efficient cause with a material cause.
Again, are you suggesting that the universe needed no cause or that the causal chain was past infinite? Neither is logically sound.