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Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
(November 6, 2017 at 7:51 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
Quote:Because you asked "why" several times. "What is God's purpose" is exactly the answer to the question "why". 

God's purpose was not in question, with foreknowledge he created a world of sin and pain, that was his plan.

You are confusing the term purpose with a logical consequence of putting that purpose into action. These are two very different things.  That's like saying the purpose of the North in the civil war was to kill Southerners. 

Quote:
Quote:Not so fast. Your OP specifically said "why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?". Shifting your "suffering" window to include hell weakens you point significantly. If hell is a result of free actions and God does not want anyone to go there, then it is a consequence of a bad choice, not the original purpose.

The world of suffering includes hell, that was god's plan from the beginning after all the amount of time sinners are going to spend on earth is dwarfed to insignificance by the time spent in hell (forever).

And of course it was gods original purpose he cannot be all knowing and at the same time do something that is not his original purpose, that's just silly and contradictory.  

Again, you confuse purpose with a consequence and then you misunderstand the consequence. 
  
No doctrine exists in isolation. The doctrine of hell is no exception. The doctrine starts with the justice/holiness of God. God created us with free will. It is an ability that God created us with because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God.

This is a two-edged sword. Because of God's justice/holiness, he cannot have a relationship with something not holy. This doctrine is not a choice that God made for things to be this way--it is a necessary (as in couldn't have been any other way) condition of being perfectly just and perfectly holy. Free will, with all of the benefits I listed above will always result in us choosing to sin and results in a separation that must be repaired.

The repair necessary could only come from the God side of the equation. God could always forgive sins. They were not paid for (slate wiped clean as if they never existed) until the Cross. Just like you can forgive someone that wrongs you--but forgiving does not remove the consequences of the action. The Cross removed the consequences (at least the eternal ones--i.e. the gulf between us and God's justice and holiness) of sin to those who freely accept it.

So, what is hell? It is my view that the immaterial soul is the thing going to hell--which would be an immaterial place/existence/experience. I believe that while it is a place of torment, one is not eternally tortured by some overlord doing things to you. We are talking about souls and NOT bodies. Flames and teeth are material and would have no effect on the immaterial so all the lake of fire/weeping and gnashing of teeth references seem to be metaphors. The pain is spiritual and stems from the complete separation from God--a condition that obviously has a profound effect on the immaterial soul.

So, God does not sentence you to hell. It is an automatic consequence for not freely choosing the option provided.

Quote:Then god created us like that, making judging us for those traits a nonsense

Quote:With free will?? Yes, he did. You cannot have love or true worship without fee will. Your point would only be persuasive if we could not avoid judgement. We can, so your objection is weak from a logic standpoint. 

We can't avoid judgement. (according to the bible), what you mean is we can choose to obey, but what is the value of choosing to obey if we can't choose any other without punishment.

And frankly god is doing a very poor job of promoting the good side of obeying him, when we see what evil the church has done, one would have thought that at the very least he would keep his own in check.

See above explanation of hell. Evil people have done in the name of religion is not the religion's fault. It is people's fault. Free will and all. 

Quote:Well yes, absolutely but free will under duress of hell is not really free will at all.
Quote:Again, that might be a good point if that was the only reason for becoming a Christian. It is clearly not, so it is not a very strong point either.
But still duress
 
That is simply not so. Knowledge of a consequence for disobedience in no way entails you obeyed because of the consequence. That is bad reasoning. 

Quote:
Quote:Question: "What is the purpose of man, according to the Bible?"

Answer: 
The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God created man and that He created him for His glory (). Therefore, the ultimate purpose of man, according to the Bible, is simply to glorify God.

A harder question to answer, perhaps, is what does it look like to glorify God? In , we’re told to worship God with gladness and “know that the Lord is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.” Part of what it looks like to glorify God is to acknowledge who God is (our Creator, for starters) and to praise and worship Him as such.

We fulfill our purpose of glorifying God also by living our lives in relationship and faithful service to Him (1 Samuel 12:24John 17:4). Since God created man in His image (Genesis 1:26–27), man’s purpose cannot be fulfilled apart from Him. King Solomon tried living for his own pleasure, yet at the end of his life he concluded that the only worthwhile life is one of honor and obedience to God ().

In our fallen state, sin separates us from God and makes it impossible to glorify Him on our own. But through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, our relationship with God is reconciled—our sin is forgiven and no longer creates a barrier between God and us ().

Interestingly, we are able to glorify God because He gave us glory first. David writes in Psalm 8:4–6, “What is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them? You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor. You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet.” (This is also repeated in Hebrews 2:6–8.) This verse reveals another purpose that God has given man: dominion over the earth (). Again, though, this can only be properly fulfilled through a right relationship with God.

The more we get to know our Creator and the more we love Him (Matthew 22:37–38), the better we understand who we are and what our purpose is. We were created to bring Him glory. God has unique plans and purposes for each person (Psalm 139:13–16), but we can know that, whatever those plans look like, they will ultimately result in His glory (Proverbs 3:61 Corinthians 10:31).  https://www.gotquestions.org/purpose-of-man.html
None of that answers my question, it's just a babble of various scripture references and links along with what the author thinks. 

It does however say that he has a plan for everyone (some of which will include going to hell), so those destined for hell are planned to do so, so why then do you believe in free will ?

Your knowledge of Christianity has huge holes in it. How about take the time to learn something about the very thing you started a thread over to point out concerning what you perceived to be the logical problems with it. It is clear from this article that God's purpose is NOT suffering and goes into some detail about what it really is. 

Regarding your last statement, it is not compatible with free will. In addition, it is God's wish that none go to hell:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ? - by SteveII - November 7, 2017 at 12:22 pm

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