(November 17, 2017 at 8:10 pm)SteveII Wrote:Bold Mine*(November 17, 2017 at 6:57 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I feel like I'm not explaining my thoughts properly.
So, god is sitting around contemplating creating existence and people. He, I dunno, imagines what he would like in a creation. The instant he does so, he sees/understands exactly how the entire scenario is going to play out, including the choices and fates of every single human being who would end up existing. Now that he understands how plan A will go, he has to make some decisions. I'll posit some options below:
* Go forward with plan A anyway, knowing how many of his "children" he'll be damning to an eternity of suffering.
* Perhaps a plan B. Same as plan A, minus hell.
* Plan C. Don't go through with it at all, and save everyone's soul in an instant.
* Plan D. Something else. Anything else. Make purple smurfs who are morally perfect and incapable of sin. He's god; he can literally do anything.
But, God chooses plan A for us, doesn't he? Where was our choice; our will in all of this? We had none. We were never meaningfully in control of our existence. God picked what he wanted for our souls out of an infinite number of possibilities, knowing how it would play out, and said, "this is the future I've chosen for you." Please explain to me again, how are we free?
Plan A includes creating us with free will. This is important because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God. Free will entails the possibility of sin and the certainty that many will choose poorly.
Plan B is not possible. Holiness and justice are essential (couldn't have been any other way) to God. They are perfections. Sin (from A) creates the barrier because of his Holiness and a need to pay the penalty because of his justice. It seems vicarious redemption has its limits in that it must be freely accepted.
Plan C -- God chose to create thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creatures. I, for one am not going to whine that I should never have had existed and my wife and children shouldn't have existed because other people make the wrong choice. The potentially infinite goodness available to all, chosen by a minority does not make God's choice to create everything problematic from a logical nor a moral standpoint.
Plan D -- you wouldn't have the goals achieved in Plan A.
Yes, God chose plan A for us. I for one, am glad he did. He did NOT chose a future for us -- only that we had a future to chose. Listen, there is nothing illogical about any of this. You objection is on an emotional level. I understand that. But it really isn't the problem you imagine for Christianity.
How are we free? Free will is choosing an action that is not causally determined by factors outside of ourselves. As I have explained a post or two ago, God knowing what we are going to chose does not impact our ability to choose.
(November 17, 2017 at 6:58 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
Wonderful, then why allow those people to be born at all ? what purpose will it serve ?
The point being that for those who believe in neither hell, nor god, they are not consciously choosing or rejecting either.
It seems that creating thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God. He wanted to create and share the joys of life, choice, love, relationship, redemption, and a potentially infinite future. I can't fault him for that--I'm kind of partial to my life. Your objection is emotionally based--there is not problem with the rationale.
*It seems that God has made it clear to everyone at some point that he exists and should be sought after.* You don't need to have heard of Jesus or the cross. God will judge you on how you responded with the information you were given.
NOTE: I haven't said this in a while: I always argue from my doctrinal positions. Others may have a different perspective.
How could you possibly know that ? He really has not made it clear to anyone, even Christians say they can offer no evidence. When atheists ask 'why does god not make himself known'? and the counter claims is of course, well if that happened you would have to believe, and so loose your free will, which argument is it?
I think it's a legitimate question, simply claiming it as an emotional one answers little, if anything. To me it's an entirely logical one, Would i bring people about that I knew would suffer for the sake of so called 'free will' , (assuming free will exists at all, which is against the current thinking) no i wouldn't, the argument is entirely logical.
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'