RE: The issue of Blasphemy in Islam
October 5, 2022 at 8:44 am
(This post was last modified: October 5, 2022 at 8:45 am by Leonardo17.)
Grand Nudger:
I am not going to repeat myself on the issue of some scholars having been and still being completely incompetent in the realm of religion and spirituality. But if we are to talk about scholars (in the past and in the present) who are known to be serious and diligent in their duty, most of them would agree with most of the opinions I have expressed here during the last 1 or 2 weeks. And no one is clowning anyone. We’re just having a chat on issues on which we happen to interested in.
So my objection in this post is going to be about your theory about monotheistic religions eradicating earlier pagan cultures. To refute this thesis I am going to talk about the Celts. Unlike religion, Ancient History happens to be one of my strong points so I’ll readily try to answer to your comments on this issue.
Now the Celts have arrived to Europe in the 12th Century BC and they became the dominant culture of Western Europe in the 8th century BC. I believe the reason for this success was their improved craftsmanship and in particular, their high quality iron weapons which allowed them to subdue the earlier Bronze-age cultures of Western Europe. Then they coexisted peacefully with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians who were doing nothing more than establishing some trading posts and therefore not threatening them.
This started to change with the Greeks. The Greeks shared this romantic “noble savage” theory of the neo-pagans and had a degree of admiration toward them. But still the term “Gaul” was synonymous with the term “barbarian”. In 4th century BC frescoes from the Athenian Acropolis you can see “Athenians fighting Persians” or “Athenians vs Amazons” or “Gods vs. Giants” frescoes that clearly resumes the Greco-Roman ideology toward the Gauls. While they had some feelings of admiration toward these cultures, their behavior reflected a true feeling of supremacy toward these “uncivilized barbarians”. At the time of Lysimachos (An heir to one of the Kingdoms of Alexander the Great in the 3rd century BC). Gauls were allowed to found a Kingdom in Anatolia, only to be used as pawns or as cannon-fodder during the endless rivalries between the Hellenistic Kingdoms until their complete eradication by the Romans in the 2nd century AD.
Gauls didn’t like their civilized neighbors eithers. They had a relatively peaceful coexistence with Greek colony / city states in Italy, southern France and east of the Iberian Peninsula but in 387 BC the Gaulish King sacked Rome and returned to Gaul with a huge amount of ransom and plundered goods. During the Punic wars (218 BC) Gauls Sided with Hannibal and tried to destroy Rome. So when the Romans conquered Gaul, Iberia, Anatolia (which was also being occupied by a celtic tribe called “Galatians”) They immediately started to capture their druids and destroy the main features of Celtic religion in order to be able to Romanize them. The Romans did the same thing in every country they could conquer. So this entire culture gradually disappeared and became Romanized (The Christians aren’t even here yet).
So when Constantine became emperor in the 4th century AD. These cultures who were already highly Romanized started to become Christians. No one forced them to convert but a) Early Christianity appealed a lot to the people of that age. It was an entirely new spiritual system which was (I am sorry to say this) far more logical than the Greco-Roman religion. By that time emperors of Rome were maniacs or decadent hedonists who were pure materialists who saw the Gods as mere philosophical concepts rather than true deities. It wasn’t uncommon for Roman Emperors to declare themselves as descendants of Venus” (like Caesar), Decadents of Hercules (Emperor Commodus) or even living Gods (like most Emperors after the 2nd century AD. ).
So After Constantine things happened very quickly. Even the Germanic and Dacian tribes started to convert to Christianity as a result of missionary activities. No one conquered Scandinavia for instance. Missionaries started to enter these kingdom starting from the 8th century AD. And many have abandoned “the old ways” by themselves. There is one case of zealous Christian attacks that I know of and it’s the Livonian Crusade against the Pagans of Today’s Latvia, in 1200 AD. And there were anti-Pagan rules during the rule of the East-Roman emperor Theodosius. But again, there was no bloodshed. In fact at the time of Nero in 64-68 AD. It was quite the opposite. Christians were thrown to the lions by the “Pagans” for not recognizing the “God-Emperor” of Rome.
So I’m going to finish with
a) “The dying Gaul” statue in the Capitoline museum that is dated to the 3rd century BC.
And b) the Amazomachy Relief from the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus in the same period.
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96len_...g_gaul.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum_..._BM_n3.jpg
I am not going to repeat myself on the issue of some scholars having been and still being completely incompetent in the realm of religion and spirituality. But if we are to talk about scholars (in the past and in the present) who are known to be serious and diligent in their duty, most of them would agree with most of the opinions I have expressed here during the last 1 or 2 weeks. And no one is clowning anyone. We’re just having a chat on issues on which we happen to interested in.
So my objection in this post is going to be about your theory about monotheistic religions eradicating earlier pagan cultures. To refute this thesis I am going to talk about the Celts. Unlike religion, Ancient History happens to be one of my strong points so I’ll readily try to answer to your comments on this issue.
Now the Celts have arrived to Europe in the 12th Century BC and they became the dominant culture of Western Europe in the 8th century BC. I believe the reason for this success was their improved craftsmanship and in particular, their high quality iron weapons which allowed them to subdue the earlier Bronze-age cultures of Western Europe. Then they coexisted peacefully with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians who were doing nothing more than establishing some trading posts and therefore not threatening them.
This started to change with the Greeks. The Greeks shared this romantic “noble savage” theory of the neo-pagans and had a degree of admiration toward them. But still the term “Gaul” was synonymous with the term “barbarian”. In 4th century BC frescoes from the Athenian Acropolis you can see “Athenians fighting Persians” or “Athenians vs Amazons” or “Gods vs. Giants” frescoes that clearly resumes the Greco-Roman ideology toward the Gauls. While they had some feelings of admiration toward these cultures, their behavior reflected a true feeling of supremacy toward these “uncivilized barbarians”. At the time of Lysimachos (An heir to one of the Kingdoms of Alexander the Great in the 3rd century BC). Gauls were allowed to found a Kingdom in Anatolia, only to be used as pawns or as cannon-fodder during the endless rivalries between the Hellenistic Kingdoms until their complete eradication by the Romans in the 2nd century AD.
Gauls didn’t like their civilized neighbors eithers. They had a relatively peaceful coexistence with Greek colony / city states in Italy, southern France and east of the Iberian Peninsula but in 387 BC the Gaulish King sacked Rome and returned to Gaul with a huge amount of ransom and plundered goods. During the Punic wars (218 BC) Gauls Sided with Hannibal and tried to destroy Rome. So when the Romans conquered Gaul, Iberia, Anatolia (which was also being occupied by a celtic tribe called “Galatians”) They immediately started to capture their druids and destroy the main features of Celtic religion in order to be able to Romanize them. The Romans did the same thing in every country they could conquer. So this entire culture gradually disappeared and became Romanized (The Christians aren’t even here yet).
So when Constantine became emperor in the 4th century AD. These cultures who were already highly Romanized started to become Christians. No one forced them to convert but a) Early Christianity appealed a lot to the people of that age. It was an entirely new spiritual system which was (I am sorry to say this) far more logical than the Greco-Roman religion. By that time emperors of Rome were maniacs or decadent hedonists who were pure materialists who saw the Gods as mere philosophical concepts rather than true deities. It wasn’t uncommon for Roman Emperors to declare themselves as descendants of Venus” (like Caesar), Decadents of Hercules (Emperor Commodus) or even living Gods (like most Emperors after the 2nd century AD. ).
So After Constantine things happened very quickly. Even the Germanic and Dacian tribes started to convert to Christianity as a result of missionary activities. No one conquered Scandinavia for instance. Missionaries started to enter these kingdom starting from the 8th century AD. And many have abandoned “the old ways” by themselves. There is one case of zealous Christian attacks that I know of and it’s the Livonian Crusade against the Pagans of Today’s Latvia, in 1200 AD. And there were anti-Pagan rules during the rule of the East-Roman emperor Theodosius. But again, there was no bloodshed. In fact at the time of Nero in 64-68 AD. It was quite the opposite. Christians were thrown to the lions by the “Pagans” for not recognizing the “God-Emperor” of Rome.
So I’m going to finish with
a) “The dying Gaul” statue in the Capitoline museum that is dated to the 3rd century BC.
And b) the Amazomachy Relief from the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus in the same period.
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96len_...g_gaul.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum_..._BM_n3.jpg
