Political Correctness Gone Mad?

[bozo]

WHEREAS, " white " is always " good ".

Not amongst the other coloured peoples in the world,who are the majority.

In some Asian cultures for example white is the colour of mourning,and some Indian gods are portrayed as black,although not evil. EG I have a small statue of Ganesh,god of wisdom on my desk. He's in black with a little gold trim.

Oh, I had a golliwog as a young child. He was called "Golli". Being a bright child, I was aware he was a stuffed toy,not a real person, just as teddy wasn't a real bear,even though I pretended he was. At age 3 I wasn't all that interested in symbolism and metaphor,or wouldn't have been had I known what they were.

I don't have kids.If I did, I like to think my attitude would be the same as Adrian's

I was quoting that the word " black " in our uk culture is used in a pejorative way. I maintain that is so. I produced a small list of examples ( not exhaustive ). I challenge you to come up with a similar list using " white " in a pejorative sense ( for our uk culture ).
As regards other cultures, using white for mourning is nowhere near like using black in a pejorative and racist way, as I have shown.


Golliwog, defined in my Chambers as :-
" a fantastical rag doll with black face, staring eyes, and bristling hair; a person who has fuzzy hair or is in some way grotesque. "

Thus it became a thing associated with unfavourable, racial stereotyping. Old British generals would refer to black people as " fuzzy-wuzzies " ( I heard an old guy use just such an expression in the 1990's ). And of course, the word eventually contracted to simply " wog " which I remember was a very popular way to refer to black people here in the uk when I was growing up in the 1950's and 60's.
The actual doll was representative of " the good nigger "....the slave who would dress-up in colourful and quite ridiculous clothes so as to find favour with the master and his contemporaries.
I had one when I was a kid and was oblivious to what it actually represented. I wish that my parents had appreciated that, but they obviously didn't. Like most people of their generation they had become accustomed to seeing black people as inferior...I remember my mother using " nigger " quite frequently.
Things changed when the liberating times of the late 1960's and 1970's and political correctness was hugely responsible for changing younger peoples' attitudes to race. Words like " nigger ", " wog " and " coon " slowly vanished from day-to-day speech as people grasped the concept of racial equality.
Things are infinitely better now than when I was young.....golliwogs have disappeared from jars of jam, they are no longer easily obtainable in retail establishments ( there may be a " black-market" sic where you can buy one if you're so inclined, I know not ) and " The Black and White Minstrel Show " no longer plays to millions on our televisions.

Institutional racism still persists, however, and sadly a large portion of the country is in denial about its racist opinions.

[bozo]

Do you not appreciate how offensive golliwogs are to most black people?

Do you not appreciate how offensive atheism is to many (probably most) theists?

Are you going to stop being an atheist?

Kyu

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Would you show all the unsanitized versions of Tom & Jerry? Laurel & Hardy?

I find it laughable sometimes with the seemingly extreme pushing on moral boundaries in modern culture we censor this stuff so savagely.

What about all those dodgy 70's sit coms? Even worse dodgy 70's comedians?

I'd watch any and all of them if I felt like it ... heard of the "off-switch" or changing channels?

People found the Brand/Ross affair too much and complained leading to massive outrage in the press, personally (whilst conceding that they probably did go a bit far ... am I ever going to know the real truth?) I found the media's hypocrisy, the "anger" of sanctimonious asswipes and the over-reaction of the BBC pathetic.

Love Thy Neighbour (one of those sitcoms I assume you refer to) was far more offensive mainly because it was complete and utter shyte whereas "'Til Death Do Us Part" (admittedly 60's but running into the 70's, featuring an exceptionally bigoted Alf Garnet played by Warren Mitchell) was probably far more offensive yet exceptionally clever.

It's worth noting that these "70's sitcoms" you seem to be slamming also included "Fawlty Towers", "The Good Life" (personally I preferred the US series of the same name), "Last of the Summer Wine", "Rising Damp", "Porridge", "Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em" (I hated this even whilst recognising that Crawford's portrayal of Frank Spencer was very clever), "Open All Hours" & "To The Manor Born" ... indeed many consider this decade to be "the golden era" of British sitcom. Oh, and the 70's also featured the awesome "Reginald Perrin" sitcoms (much better than the awful remake the BBC showed this week) so I think I'm quite inclined to agree that it was a very good time for British Comedy.

Kyu

I don't accept your comparing atheist/deist interaction is remotely the same as what a golliwog represents.

As regards sitcoms, you appear to be missing the point. Love thy Neighbour and Til Death were groundbreaking in that the " heroes " of both were pig-ignorant racists. The joke was on them and their ignorant racism.

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Do you not appreciate how offensive golliwogs are to most black people?

I do indeed, and I would ask them to explain how they can rationalize such offense when it is common knowledge in today's society that golliwogs are not an accurate representation of black people, just as Bratz are not an accurate representation of white people. If people were buying golliwogs and giving them to their children saying "this is a black person", or "look at this doll of a black person", I would object. However this is not what people are doing, and this is certainly not what I am going to do with my kids.

Words and depictions will last forever, but interpretations can change in an instant.

Maybe you should try going out for a day in a black working class area, Brixton maybe, and meet and greet the black people with a cheery " hiya golliwog , how you doin? ".
I'm sure you would find it ever so easy to ask them to " rationalise " their response to you.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I don't accept your comparing atheist/deist interaction is remotely the same as what a golliwog represents.

[SHRUG] That's your problem ... from conversations I have had online I know that many theists find atheism as offensive as others might find racism.

As regards sitcoms, you appear to be missing the point. Love thy Neighbour and Til Death were groundbreaking in that the " heroes " of both were pig-ignorant racists. The joke was on them and their ignorant racism.

That WAS the point I was making with "'Til Death Do Us Part", I don't accept that "Love Thy Neighbour" did it at all (or if it did, it did it an embarrassingly bad fashion).

Kyu

[bozo]

I don't accept your comparing atheist/deist interaction is remotely the same as what a golliwog represents.

[SHRUG] That's your problem ... from conversations I have had online I know that many theists find atheism as offensive as others might find racism.

As regards sitcoms, you appear to be missing the point. Love thy Neighbour and Til Death were groundbreaking in that the " heroes " of both were pig-ignorant racists. The joke was on them and their ignorant racism.

That WAS the point I was making with "'Til Death Do Us Part", I don't accept that "Love Thy Neighbour" did it at all (or if it did, it did it an embarrassingly bad fashion).

SHRUGS....I don't think I can help you any more.

Kyu

[Tiberius]

Maybe you should try going out for a day in a black working class area, Brixton maybe, and meet and greet the black people with a cheery " hiya golliwog , how you doin? ".
I'm sure you would find it ever so easy to ask them to " rationalise " their response to you.

Erm...did you miss the point of my post? I said that in today's culture, people know that the golliwog doll isn't a representation of an black person. Since it isn't a representation of an actual black person, why would I go and call them it?

Comparing a black person to a golliwog doll is, I agree, racist and offensive. Having a golliwog doll as a doll is not.

I think our disagreement is simply a result of our upbringing. You were brought up in a racist time, and so you still have a mindset based on that era (i.e. that you wouldn't ever want to go back to those days). Me, having grown up in an environment that focused on equality, am far more inclined to see things for what they actually are (dolls as dolls) instead of what a previous mindset might have envisioned in them. I think I can say this for most of the people in my generation. I doubt any of my black friends find golliwogs offensive, or even racist jokes.

[bozo]

Maybe you should try going out for a day in a black working class area, Brixton maybe, and meet and greet the black people with a cheery " hiya golliwog , how you doin? ".
I'm sure you would find it ever so easy to ask them to " rationalise " their response to you.

Erm...did you miss the point of my post? I said that in today's culture, people know that the golliwog doll isn't a representation of an black person. Since it isn't a representation of an actual black person, why would I go and call them it?

Comparing a black person to a golliwog doll is, I agree, racist and offensive. Having a golliwog doll as a doll is not.

I think our disagreement is simply a result of our upbringing. You were brought up in a racist time, and so you still have a mindset based on that era (i.e. that you wouldn't ever want to go back to those days). Me, having grown up in an environment that focused on equality, am far more inclined to see things for what they actually are (dolls as dolls) instead of what a previous mindset might have envisioned in them. I think I can say this for most of the people in my generation. I doubt any of my black friends find golliwogs offensive, or even racist jokes.

I just love repetition. The golliwog is what it is and comes with a history. Can you therefore explain to me why any outlet caught with one on their shelves immediately removes it and apologises?
I have described " the good nigger " in this post. I have a big problem and I suspect the majority of blacks share it, with blacks who accept racism with the excuse that it's " only a joke " or, in this case, only a toy.
Example of " good nigger syndrome ", a couple of years ago, the first black face appeared as a drudge in Buckingham Palace. Ex-Play School presenter and now likes-to-think politico, Floella Benjamin, hailed the move as a giant step forward for black people. Do your black friends agree?

[Tiberius]

Sure I can explain, it's because society is ruled by the anti-racists more than the pro-equalists. The anti-racists will see the doll and say "Oh my! That's a racist depiction of a black person!". A pro-equalist will look at the doll and say "Oh my! That's a funny looking doll!". The difference between them is that the anti-racist is ironically being the racist one, by implying that because the doll looks weird and is black, it must therefore be associated with black people, even though they don't look anything like the doll. The pro-equalist sees what is there, a doll with a weird face. They might notice it is black, but they do not relate it to black people.

All the anti-racist movement has done has campaigned for racism. They keep on insisting there is a massive difference between people of different coloured skin, and the pro-equalists say there simply isn't, and that everyone shouldn't be viewed that way. The anti-racists complained very loudly when Janet Street Porter called her black neighbour a "bitch", when the pro-equalists (me included) wrote at length why it wasn't racism to call another human being a rude word. Perhaps you can justify the anti-racist reaction bozo? Why did they complain so very loudly when Janet Street Porter called another human being a "bitch"? She wasn't doing it because the lady was black, she was doing it because she thought the lady was being a bitch.

All the anti-racist movement did by calling Janet Street Porter a "racist" was say very clearly that you cannot insult people of different colour skin, and that every single black person must be respected. In other words, black people are somehow elevated to a higher level of importance than white people. Hmmmm...that sound a bit like racism to me.

[bozo]

Sure I can explain, it's because society is ruled by the anti-racists more than the pro-equalists. The anti-racists will see the doll and say "Oh my! That's a racist depiction of a black person!". A pro-equalist will look at the doll and say "Oh my! That's a funny looking doll!". The difference between them is that the anti-racist is ironically being the racist one, by implying that because the doll looks weird and is black, it must therefore be associated with black people, even though they don't look anything like the doll. The pro-equalist sees what is there, a doll with a weird face. They might notice it is black, but they do not relate it to black people.

All the anti-racist movement has done has campaigned for racism. They keep on insisting there is a massive difference between people of different coloured skin, and the pro-equalists say there simply isn't, and that everyone shouldn't be viewed that way. The anti-racists complained very loudly when Janet Street Porter called her black neighbour a "bitch", when the pro-equalists (me included) wrote at length why it wasn't racism to call another human being a rude word. Perhaps you can justify the anti-racist reaction bozo? Why did they complain so very loudly when Janet Street Porter called another human being a "bitch"? She wasn't doing it because the lady was black, she was doing it because she thought the lady was being a bitch.

All the anti-racist movement did by calling Janet Street Porter a "racist" was say very clearly that you cannot insult people of different colour skin, and that every single black person must be respected. In other words, black people are somehow elevated to a higher level of importance than white people. Hmmmm...that sound a bit like racism to me.

Oh dear, you just don't get it, do you? Or do you want to? The dolls have been taken from the shelves for reasons I gave to Padraic earlier today. You seek to deny their history. Well so be it.
I'm unfamiliar with The Street-Porter story, so I can't comment from knowledge. If the real issue was calling somebody a bitch then I don't see it as racist, but is the lady in question racist? I don't know and neither can you know.
And as for your criticism of anti-racists, well frankly I think its bollocks.
My challenge to you to test your theory amongst the black populace stays.
And to you and your black friends, do you think we now live in a non-racist, pro-equalist Britain?

[Tiberius]

Oh dear, you just don't get it, do you? Or do you want to? The dolls have been taken from the shelves for reasons I gave to Padraic earlier today. You seek to deny their history. Well so be it.
I'm unfamiliar with The Street-Porter story, so I can't comment from knowledge. If the real issue was calling somebody a bitch then I don't see it as racist, but is the lady in question racist? I don't know and neither can you know.
And as for your criticism of anti-racists, well frankly I think its bollocks.
My challenge to you to test your theory amongst the black populace stays.
And to you and your black friends, do you think we now live in a non-racist, pro-equalist Britain?

I don't deny their history, I simply think it is irrelevant today given that attitudes have changed.

I agree, we cannot know whether Street Porter is racist or not, however this wasn't the issue. The issue was whether her outburst at a black lady was a racist attack. It doesn't matter if Street Porter is secretly racist or not, she should be able to call a neighbour a "bitch" if she wishes. Even if she had no real reason to call her a bitch, I stand by it. People insult other people all the time for no reason, and matters shouldn't change just because a black lady is involved.

You think my criticism of anti-racists is bollocks but you don't say why. Are we having a discussion or not?

Which "theory" are you talking about? If you want me to go and tell black people they are "golliwogs" or other racist slurs then I am not going to, and I've given my reasons why.

As for my friends, I think they would all agree that in the area in which they live, racism isn't an issue at all. I've never heard of any racist attacks in Egham, or even in my home town. I would say that they all think where they live is a very equal place.

[Kyuuketsuki]

SHRUGS....I don't think I can help you any more.

Implicitly meaning you're right and I'm wrong? More like fire and forget I'd say ... fire off random abuse (and it was implied) and forget to make an actual point. Well I'll just assume you're not capable of making one until you actually do.

Kyu