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(January 7, 2012 at 11:19 pm)organiccornflake Wrote: Response to TDOA: It is reasonable to be assumed that the slave laws for the Jewish to be applied to every slave. The bible simply just referred to the Jews because they were the biggest example going on at the time.
Considering that all of the passages about slavery in regards to 'treat them well' specifically state to do this to the 'children of israel' and family, this is very much not a reasonable thing to assume it applies to everyone at all considering that the bible states otherwise.
Look through my responses to Chipan in the "easy Arguements Against the Bible thread" and you'll see what I mean. This is entirely backed biblically and Chipan attempted to argue the same points.
I'm sure he'd say that he succeeded, but he didn't just as I'm sure you would on the same points.
In lieu of re-doing all the research I've already myself, I'll simply refer you here. It's not quite as detailed as my points, but you get the drift of it.
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan
First of all, thank you for your kind words. I do try to keep a civil head - I am an ex-Civil Servant after all - though sometimes the frustration from having to knock down the same brick walls again and again can lead, shall we say, to harsh words.
That was the nice bit. Now comes the part where I say that you're missing the point (sorry). I'll try to illustrate with an anecdote from my experience. I used to be active on a forum dedicated to a particular British sci-fi series which took place in a dystopian future in which an oppressive regime held the lower orders in thrall. These lower orders were classified into 'grades' depending on their usefulness to society, Alpha Grades being the élite office worker types and Delta being essentially the shit shifters. A discussion on the forum ensued with members offering their opinions as to how the different grades were apportioned: either based on a person's intelligence, or ability, or even criminal potential. Then one member posed the observation that all of this chinwagging is fine but it is implicitly accepting that such a grade system is right.
The bible quotes that mention how slave owners ought to treat their slaves do precisely the same thing. They may offer such advice as 'don't beat your slave so much that he dies' or 'don't take your slaves from such-and-such people' or similar. But there is not one verse that says 'it is wrong for one human being to own another as property', and that's the morally indefensible part.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
January 8, 2012 at 12:13 am (This post was last modified: January 8, 2012 at 12:28 am by organiccornflake.)
Interesting link TDOA! However, I would like to point out the obvious bias of the link (as the website is called "evilbible") and that left room for a lot of biased assumptions. Allow me to elaborate using text from the link;
While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn't mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock
That doesn't mean they were, either. It isn't conclusive in either direction, really.
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
So many emotionally charged words. Once again, the author says "like livestock." Where is he getting this?
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!
To understand this; you must understand that selling your daughter into sex wasnt sex slavery, it was marriage. Now, also you must understand that the only women that had any value in biblical days were virgins; that is why if she chose not to "please" her master she may be sold back only to her family, as she still has her purity. But, once she gave her virginity to her master, she had no value, and it was in her best interest to stay with the one who cared enough to buy her. So, if you were a man back then, what would common sense tell you to do? Buy a wife, have sex with her, then (since she was no longer a valued virgin) sell her, or buy another wife and just forget about the first one, right? This passage protects the women from that, as they may not be sold AND their quality of life must not be reduced as a product of the purchase of another wife. This passage is for the protection of the women.
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
This emotionally-charged paragraph is forgetting one major thing; why the slave was being struck. The verse is simply saying that you are not allowed to capitally punish slaves for their actions.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Punishment for refusing to do your job. Not unreasonable. Light punishment for ignorant disobedience sounds about right. The last sentences of this passage go on to say "With power comes responsibility." A good bit of wisdom for slave masters.
All in all; that link demonizes biblical slavery and, through assumptions and avoidance of obvious questions, turns biblical slavery into something it wasn't.
Judging the morality of slavery is difficult; as many people still believe it to be morally okay. Who is to say it is incorrect?
Also, what must be understood is it teaches of the importance of service in life. The bible teaches not to be worried of "when your going to eat," but to be filled with the joy of god. The bible is saying that servants should submit, and be examples, ESPECIALLY the christian servants . The punishment is brief; and the gift of paradise is eternal.
January 8, 2012 at 12:41 am (This post was last modified: January 8, 2012 at 1:03 am by Whateverist.)
(January 7, 2012 at 9:48 pm)organiccornflake Wrote:
(December 23, 2011 at 10:20 pm)AthiestAtheist Wrote: For a response to your argument, why don't you take a look at my signature.
Slavery was a huge theme in the bible. Of course, im sure you dont choose to read the passages that command slave masters to be generous in every way. The bible also commands the slaves to be obedient to their good masters. If everyone did as the bible instructed; slavery would not have turned into the ugly thing that it is known as today.
What?! The only thing that gives slavery a black eye is the ungodly manner in which it is practiced? Seriously? Other than that, so long as slave owners are sufficiently compassionate, you really don't see anything objectionable about one human being owning another and enforcing compliance with their godly demands? You have to be kidding. This is the kind of conclusion one can only reach if you begin by assuming some book or other is inerrant and from God. No right thinking person will follow you down this road.
(January 8, 2012 at 12:13 am)organiccornflake Wrote: Judging the morality of slavery is difficult; as many people still believe it to be morally okay. Who is to say it is incorrect?
Also, what must be understood is it teaches of the importance of service in life. The bible teaches not to be worried of "when your going to eat," but to be filled with the joy of god. The bible is saying that servants should submit, and be examples, ESPECIALLY the christian servants . The punishment is brief; and the gift of paradise is eternal.
You sir, or madam, are a moral imbecile and you have the bible and the sick, twisted way you interpret it to thank for your condition. Desperate sophistry is all you have to offer unless you heal yourself. Burn the bible and pray to god and everyone you've offended for forgiveness. That is the only way back to the humanity you've let languish so that you could become a zombie for christ. Repent!
Funny isn't it? So many xtians decry atheism because they fear the lack of an objective moral code, never suspecting how far they can go wrong by blindly following a bad one (or badly following a good one for that matter). The most essential value of xtianity is the golden rule yet this one thinks defending a literal interpretation of every page of the bible is more important. He may be a biblist but he is no follower of Christ, that is clear.
I'm not especially partial to that link - I brought it up in a casual google search.
However, I see absolutely zero biblically supported refutations on the points made in that link - only attacks on the tone of the work and the one point you made (about women's rights) fails given the nature of the exchange in the point you were refuting and you didn't even refute the points it made.
The passage clearly marked said slave-girl as a slave and gave rules as to the trade and treatment of said girl, there are no lines about protecting women from being traded around like property.
I'm not even going to get into the points in the bible about female unbetrothed virgins who are raped being forced to marry their rapitsts.
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan
(January 8, 2012 at 12:13 am)organiccornflake Wrote:
Interesting link TDOA! However, I would like to point out the obvious bias of the link (as the website is called "evilbible") and that left room for a lot of biased assumptions. Allow me to elaborate using text from the link;
While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn't mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock
That doesn't mean they were, either. It isn't conclusive in either direction, really.
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
So many emotionally charged words. Once again, the author says "like livestock." Where is he getting this?
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!
To understand this; you must understand that selling your daughter into sex wasnt sex slavery, it was marriage. Now, also you must understand that the only women that had any value in biblical days were virgins; that is why if she chose not to "please" her master she may be sold back only to her family, as she still has her purity. But, once she gave her virginity to her master, she had no value, and it was in her best interest to stay with the one who cared enough to buy her. So, if you were a man back then, what would common sense tell you to do? Buy a wife, have sex with her, then (since she was no longer a valued virgin) sell her, or buy another wife and just forget about the first one, right? This passage protects the women from that, as they may not be sold AND their quality of life must not be reduced as a product of the purchase of another wife. This passage is for the protection of the women.
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
This emotionally-charged paragraph is forgetting one major thing; why the slave was being struck. The verse is simply saying that you are not allowed to capitally punish slaves for their actions.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Punishment for refusing to do your job. Not unreasonable. Light punishment for ignorant disobedience sounds about right. The last sentences of this passage go on to say "With power comes responsibility." A good bit of wisdom for slave masters.
All in all; that link demonizes biblical slavery and, through assumptions and avoidance of obvious questions, turns biblical slavery into something it wasn't.
Judging the morality of slavery is difficult; as many people still believe it to be morally okay. Who is to say it is incorrect?
Also, what must be understood is it teaches of the importance of service in life. The bible teaches not to be worried of "when your going to eat," but to be filled with the joy of god. The bible is saying that servants should submit, and be examples, ESPECIALLY the christian servants . The punishment is brief; and the gift of paradise is eternal.
Well, there's your modern christian morality for you.
Slavery is morally acceptable cos the bible says so.
Yep, christians are sooo much more moral than us evil atheists.
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
Well, there's your modern christian morality for you.
Slavery is morally acceptable cos the bible says so.
Yep, christians are sooo much more moral than us evil atheists.
[/quote]
My main rebuttle to all of these points is that biblical slavery wasnt what you think it was; and that the laws in the bible were to protect the slaves. This link right here can explain it better than I using scripture.
![[Image: 379885_267761043287355_177504712312989_7...3091_n.jpg]](https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/379885_267761043287355_177504712312989_735874_200303091_n.jpg)
![[Image: mybannerglitter06eee094.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i118.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo112%2Fpussinboots_photos%2FBikes%2Fmybannerglitter06eee094.gif)
