Big Brother

[reverendjeremiah]

[Autumnlicious]

Rev, you're beginning to remind me of the nutty communists in Berkeley who spin me fantastical tales of the post-fascist-capitalist world. All hyperbole with questionable links.

Furthermore, anyone who observes our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, would note that for a loosely affiliate clan-structured society (much like yours and Sae's ridiculous anarchist-syndicates), it has a tendency of oscillating between status quo and incredible bouts of violence. Indeed, a comparison between developing human societies and industrialized countries does show a consistent shift from clan-based organizations to large scale societies (governments).

No one in their right mind would state that the long term societal organization of pre-15th century Bedouins (chosen as an archetype of clan-based) is a blue print for a civilization, yet the same is put forth by you.

In any case, all you advocate is merely an offset of power, not an elimination. Whether said power is in the hands of a society (the government) or some clan-like organization (syndicates). Furthermore, you always get power concentrated into the hands of the few.

Why?

Probably for the same fucking reason chimpanzees build alliances, temporary and long term. They scheme and accumulate power as well within their societies, often comprising powerful "families".

If the chimps are doing that, what makes you think we'll transcend our basic nature? We're much more likely to embrace it.

[reverendjeremiah]

Wow...thats alot of assumption for me just putting up a pic, dont you think?

[Autumnlicious]

A picture is worth a thousand words? Or in this case, has >70 words? This has been sitting in my head for over a month?

[reverendjeremiah]

Rev, you're beginning to remind me of the nutty communists in Berkeley who spin me fantastical tales of the post-fascist-capitalist world. All hyperbole with questionable links.

Sure...please list those questionable links I have posted...you've got my interest peeked.

Furthermore, anyone who observes our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, would note that for a loosely affiliate clan-structured society (much like yours and Sae's ridiculous anarchist-syndicates),

I am supporting clan-structured societies? I wasnt aware of doing that. That isnt even what anarcho-syndicalism is.

it has a tendency of oscillating between status quo and incredible bouts of violence.

Status quo? How can you have that when property is held in common?

As far as "bouts of violence", sure... humans are known for their bouts of violence, but why does MY view get stuck with its blame when every other political view is just as much of a potential of it? Should we put people in cages for their minor bouts of violence? No. Let them work it out.

Indeed, a comparison between developing human societies and industrialized countries does show a consistent shift from clan-based organizations to large scale societies (governments).

Funny that you knock syndicalism, yet Syndicalism is "Trade Unions" in French. If a syndicate is running an economy, you can sure bet that industrialisation will be very apparent...and there you go with that "clan" talk again. I dont know what you are talking about. Do you understand what "syndicalism" means?

No one in their right mind would state that the long term societal organization of pre-15th century Bedouins (chosen as an archetype of clan-based) is a blue print for a civilization, yet the same is put forth by you.

It is becoming VERY apparent that you havent the slightest clue what "Syndicalism" means.

In any case, all you advocate is merely an offset of power, not an elimination. Whether said power is in the hands of a society (the government) or some clan-like organization (syndicates). Furthermore, you always get power concentrated into the hands of the few.

What are you talking about? Anarcho-syndicalism has no "government" or "state". Anarcho-Syndicalism is a stateless, non-hierarchical society whose economy is run by the trade union through the labor exchange.

Why?

Probably for the same fucking reason chimpanzees build alliances, temporary and long term. They scheme and accumulate power as well within their societies, often comprising powerful "families".

What are you talking about? Anarcho-syndicalism would have all land held in common. How is that "powerful clans"? AS would have a strong civil-libertarian social view, so there would be a decent amount of "cross breeding" amongst the varying types of humans. Why would a system not based on personal profit bring forth "powerful families"? And why does AS get blamed for that, when many other government models (such as the USA) already have it as well?

If the chimps are doing that, what makes you think we'll transcend our basic nature? We're much more likely to embrace it.

Are we chimps?

[KichigaiNeko]

IF one is being watched continuously then a bit of T&A might give then something to view??

[Perhaps]

I don't even know your real name, but I could find out more about you demographically then you probably know yourself with a few simple lines of code and a couple clicks. This isn't new, and it's growing, no point in fighting it, just utilize it. Just because someone always knows what you're doing, where you are, and who you're doing it with doesn't mean you can't still do it.

[The Grand Nudger]

While I don't feel that any organization is currently competent of performing continuous recon on the public at large, it's undeniable that all of the tools are in place. With many security systems being tied into the internet in one way or another, the prevalence of cellphones and debit/credit cards, and the sophistication of recon satellites...if one were so inclined, it is probably possible to follow a single human being at every moment of their lives from birth to death without them ever being aware of it. Thankfully, there's not a whole lot of money in that sort of thing (by and large). It is a disturbing thought (at least to me, personally).

The usefulness of this sort of network is obvious as well. So it's a bit of a janus situation isn't it. If the numbers add up (IE safety, security, etc) I can see a compromise being made. Big Brother, within extremely limited boundaries (and draconian public oversight), could be a benefit to us...sad to say, but true.

[Violet]

The usefulness of this sort of network is obvious as well. So it's a bit of a janus situation isn't it. If the numbers add up (IE safety, security, etc) I can see a compromise being made. Big Brother, within extremely limited boundaries (and draconian public oversight), could be a benefit to us...sad to say, but true.

It could be...

And it could also be exactly like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

I am not an optimist...

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I don't even know your real name, but I could find out more about you demographically then you probably know yourself with a few simple lines of code and a couple clicks. This isn't new, and it's growing, no point in fighting it, just utilize it. Just because someone always knows what you're doing, where you are, and who you're doing it with doesn't mean you can't still do it.

But it does mean that they might have the power to blackmail you over it, possibly arrest you for it, or even kill you because of it. It just depends on who that person is... and perhaps more importantly: what organization they belong to.

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Furthermore, anyone who observes our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, would note that for a loosely affiliate clan-structured society (much like yours and Sae's ridiculous anarchist-syndicates), it has a tendency of oscillating between status quo and incredible bouts of violence. Indeed, a comparison between developing human societies and industrialized countries does show a consistent shift from clan-based organizations to large scale societies (governments).

How do you mean by 'clan'? I happen to know many people living in Kasilof... and I've seen much volunteerism in various projects (the Kasilof dunes fence project comes to mind http://peninsulaclarion.com/stories/0530...4992.shtml note that most of these people who drive over the dunes are from out of state).

Ridiculous? I hardly think so. Rather, I believe good nature and volunteerism are to be expected in a community that provides for itself. Infact, it would likely foster discussions about new projects, and expansion of the community. I'm still interested in how you mean 'clan', since you are using it enough... just I don't see how it's applicable.

No one in their right mind would state that the long term societal organization of pre-15th century Bedouins (chosen as an archetype of clan-based) is a blue print for a civilization, yet the same is put forth by you.

In any case, all you advocate is merely an offset of power, not an elimination. Whether said power is in the hands of a society (the government) or some clan-like organization (syndicates). Furthermore, you always get power concentrated into the hands of the few.

Wat.

Firstly, power in the hands of government is rarely in the hands of its society. Take America: however the people want to vote in america is meaningless... as the only votes that get the president elected are in the electoral college. It often takes a great deal of money and advertisement to even be elected *to* vote on the president.

Secondly, nobody has any more inherent power than anyone else in a syndicate such as I propose... and would you really harp on people for being respected enough for their suggestions to hold more weight than some other people's?

Because that is 'ridiculous'.

Why?

Probably for the same fucking reason chimpanzees build alliances, temporary and long term. They scheme and accumulate power as well within their societies, often comprising powerful "families".

If the chimps are doing that, what makes you think we'll transcend our basic nature? We're much more likely to embrace it.

Only reason I can see to 'build alliances' in AS is to share the surpluses of several communities. I hardly see how a powerful family is going to emerge... with the exception of an entire family being highly respected. There is some small respect afforded for being closely related to someone who's greatly respected... but if you're an asshole it's unlikely you will retain that small fortune.

There isn't any power to accumulate in such a society... there is only the respect of the other members of society and the satisfaction of doing a good job and getting something done (either for you... or for everyone).

What makes me think we will 'transcend our basic nature'? My experiences with people in my short life.

[reverendjeremiah]

Lilly, you have syndicalism down to a science...but alas, many people refuse to understand it. They dont HAVE to agree with it, but its like they even refuse to understand it.

..although to be honest I wasnt expecting AS to be compared to feudalism and 15th century Arabic tribalism.

Syndicalism would have absolutely NOTHING in common with feudalism. Land is held in common and a stateless society tends it. All people are blue colar workers.

The closest thing syndicalism would have to tribalism is that syndicalism is against centralization of power, prefering instead to allow direct democracy to take place in local communities...but, even then that would be a stretch of the imagination in a comparison to tribalism. syndicalism is industrialisation WITHOUT Big Brother, without the war machine, and without the rampant corruption and pollution.


Note that I DID NOT say "without its problems", because of course it will have problems. Syndicalism is not a utopia. It depends heavily on cooperation.