Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

[Epimethean]

A better way to put that, GC, would be to say that when you are faced with the myriad contradictions inherent in your scripture, you are forced to spend hours working out even better rationalizations for why you are right and the rest of the world is wrong. This is the modus operandi of the xtian apologist.

[Drich]

Obviously not the god you're claiming exists. If you argue there's an omni-benevolent god and we submit to you a reality that demonstrably counters it completely, then clearly you have one heck of a refutation to overcome.

Read what I originally wrote again. This is NOT what I am arguing. I have said several different ways God's leading attribute is NOT Omni-Benevolence. Matter of Fact the bible never describes God as Omni Benevolent. The Bible Describes God as Righteous above all else.

What if for some reason you all have misunderstood the concept of "love?" What if you misunderstand the conditions of God's love? What if you misunderstand the concept that "God is love" above all else?

What if Hell is real and we'll ponder that semantics question while we're being tortured for all eternity?

Again if you were not too busy trying to hold on to your idea of an omni benevolent God you would see the biblical direction I was trying to take the conversation.

I guess God, being the all-powerful creator of all reality and causality, is clearly under-qualified for the task you propose.

The failure is not God's it is yours. If you apply for a job your are grossly under qualified for, or if you do not understand the technical aspects of what is required for you, is it the employers fault you are not suited for the task? Or is your ignorance keeping you from being an employable asset? The same is true here if you do not know what is required or what is expected then how can you meet the minimal requirements for what God is offering?

You first since you're claiming there's a God whose 'love' we don't understand.

I've done this several times now for several different people but will be happy to provide a basic understanding of the Greek words that all get translated into the English word "love." I can also show you that the English meaning of the word in the last 20 years has changed it's meaning to include a blanket tolerance that was not know to us just one generation ago. But we must first start with what the bible records as "Love." Are you familiar with the 4 Koine Greek words I am speaking about, and what they mean?

No. Love has conditions I'm afraid. It has limits.

Good a place to start, now I just need to know what you know about the different aspects of "Love."

So what is "God who is love" when he doesn't love someone?

Ask Cain, Esau or Pharaoh. None of these guys were "loved" by God.

[The writer must have been high that day. The Bible says a lot of things friend. Books usually do.

Do you see how you have to take my work out of it's context in order to fight the fight you want to argue? I did mention some of the other things the bible said as well, but somehow they got left out.. No room in your straw man for my whole argument huh? Or did you think I simply did not understand the what it was i was implying?

Righteousness isn't love.

Holy Smokes!! Finally!!! I was having my doubts but it seems you have redeemed yourself as a "thinker."

Your god may have a love for "justice" and smiting others, but that isn't love.

Which brings us back to the point you missed in my first Post! God's leading attribute is not your idea of an all encompassing hippy love. God above all else is Righteous. Omni benevolence is not something taught by the bible. It is something religious men created to worship apart from the bible. Again No Where In The Bible Is God Defined As Omni Benevolent.

Even you should be able to appreciate the difference.

Is your god concept omni-benevolent, as in all-loving, or not?

No, Why? Because the bible does not say He is Omni Benevolent/all loving. God's love is limited to the Agape aspect of Love. This is how Wiki defines it:
Agape ( /ˈæɡəpiː/[1] or /əˈɡɑːpeɪ/; Classical Greek: ἀγάπη, agápē; Modern Greek: αγάπη IPA: [aˈɣapi]) is one of the Koine Greek words translated into English as love, one which became particularly appropriated in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for mankind. In the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans, as well as the human reciprocal love for God; the term necessarily extends to the love of one’s fellow man.

Did you get that? The Covenant of Love. Meaning Contract or terms and conditions of Love. Simply put it is an equation X+Y=Agape or God's love. Anything out side of this contract or Covenant Is NOT covered by the love of God. This means God is NOT Omni Benevolent God is not ALL Loving. God's love has limits. He set those limits in the Covenant He has with Man. What covenant? The Covenant established Through the Gospel. Meaning if you (x) add the Gospel(y) and incorporate it into your life you will get (=) The Agape love of God.

No other understanding of "love" is offered. Also understand that not knowing what was being offered is no longer an excuse for you or anyone else who reads this message. Meaning do not expect to use this as a judgment day defense.

At least we can both agree unconditional love is nonsense then.

You seem to have overlooked all of what the secular non-religious Charities, and people have done for this world.

World charities are not on trial here. You have specifically targeted Christian "works" as being all bad. I simply have shown you that not all are.

Yes because you love to love God and want him to reciprocate that feeling. Love is intrinsically selfish like that mate.

Again it does not seem like you understand the basic understand of the term and how it is being used when speaking about Love. Hopefully this post will help you clear things up.

[Killman]

I have no mission here, to have a mission I would need goals and I haven't set any, other than to learn.

If you truly are here to learn, then I highly doubt that you would be a christian right now. No, you are too terrified of death and the concept of hell to let it go, despite the CONSTANT barrage of evidence that is thrown at you. I just have complete doubt in you being here to learn.

[Godscreated]

I have no mission here, to have a mission I would need goals and I haven't set any, other than to learn.

If you truly are here to learn, then I highly doubt that you would be a christian right now. No, you are too terrified of death and the concept of hell to let it go, despite the CONSTANT barrage of evidence that is thrown at you. I just have complete doubt in you being here to learn.

What ever, I have no fear of hell and no need to fear death, I've been redeemed from both for Christ is risen.

[mediamogul]

I have no mission here, to have a mission I would need goals and I haven't set any, other than to learn.

If you truly are here to learn, then I highly doubt that you would be a christian right now. No, you are too terrified of death and the concept of hell to let it go, despite the CONSTANT barrage of evidence that is thrown at you. I just have complete doubt in you being here to learn.

What ever, I have no fear of hell and no need to fear death, I've been redeemed from both for Christ is risen.

Here it is the day after Good Friday and you are still arguing with atheists on an internet forum. Are you having doubts GC?

[Godscreated]

I have no mission here, to have a mission I would need goals and I haven't set any, other than to learn.

If you truly are here to learn, then I highly doubt that you would be a christian right now. No, you are too terrified of death and the concept of hell to let it go, despite the CONSTANT barrage of evidence that is thrown at you. I just have complete doubt in you being here to learn.

What ever, I have no fear of hell and no need to fear death, I've been redeemed from both for Christ is risen.

Here it is the day after Good Friday and you are still arguing with atheists on an internet forum. Are you having doubts GC?

Never!!!

[houseofcantor]

What ever, I have no fear of hell and no need to fear death, I've been redeemed from both for Christ is risen.

[Greatest I am]

Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

Regards
DL

I starting to see a reoccurring theme with you guys. "God doesn't love us the way we think he should therefore God can not exist."

What if for some reason you all have misunderstood the concept of "love?" What if you misunderstand the conditions of God's love? What if you misunderstand the concept that "God is love" above all else?

If you and God are not working on the same definition of "love" then how can God be expected to meet your understanding? Did you know in the Koine Greek (The original language in which the "God is Love" principle was first recorded) there are 4 very distinct words, with different meanings that in the English all translate into the word "Love?" Perhaps you should define "love," to see if you and God are even talking about the same thing.

Do you love unconditionally? or does your love have limits? What if the object of your love literally cut your throat and watched you bled out rather than sought help? where would you love be then? If you have the ability to discern who you are and are not going to love, and also put conditions on that love then why would you put a limitation on God's ability to do the same?

The bible does say "God is Love." What It does not say is our idea of Love, is God's defining Characteristic. What is Identified as His defining characteristic is what He calls Righteousness. This righteousness has Him Flood the World, Kill women and Children, Have His people conquered and enslaved and ultimately has His own Son beaten and nailed to a cross. To say "God is Love above all else, is to over look some major defining events of the bible.

God's leading attribute is not "love" but Righteousness.

Now to answer concern of the Opening Statement. God's love is made manifest in the works and deeds of those who love Him. You seem to have over looked all of what Christian Charities, and people have done for this world. Christians do not give of themselves. Christians give to God out of Love. God in turn Gives what was Given back to those who need it. Love(the biblical kind and not the obscure undefined kind) and Works do Go hand in Hand. You just need to know where and how to look.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Seems that if any here are not familiar to what love is to your delusional God, then it is his fault as he has not deemed it fit to correct us.

As to God being love. Love does not kill those he loves and your God does much killing.

Love is as love does.

Your God of unconditional love places quite a few conditions to gain his unconditional love.

Regards
DL

[Godscreated]

Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

Regards
DL

I starting to see a reoccurring theme with you guys. "God doesn't love us the way we think he should therefore God can not exist."

What if for some reason you all have misunderstood the concept of "love?" What if you misunderstand the conditions of God's love? What if you misunderstand the concept that "God is love" above all else?

If you and God are not working on the same definition of "love" then how can God be expected to meet your understanding? Did you know in the Koine Greek (The original language in which the "God is Love" principle was first recorded) there are 4 very distinct words, with different meanings that in the English all translate into the word "Love?" Perhaps you should define "love," to see if you and God are even talking about the same thing.

Do you love unconditionally? or does your love have limits? What if the object of your love literally cut your throat and watched you bled out rather than sought help? where would you love be then? If you have the ability to discern who you are and are not going to love, and also put conditions on that love then why would you put a limitation on God's ability to do the same?

The bible does say "God is Love." What It does not say is our idea of Love, is God's defining Characteristic. What is Identified as His defining characteristic is what He calls Righteousness. This righteousness has Him Flood the World, Kill women and Children, Have His people conquered and enslaved and ultimately has His own Son beaten and nailed to a cross. To say "God is Love above all else, is to over look some major defining events of the bible.

God's leading attribute is not "love" but Righteousness.

Now to answer concern of the Opening Statement. God's love is made manifest in the works and deeds of those who love Him. You seem to have over looked all of what Christian Charities, and people have done for this world. Christians do not give of themselves. Christians give to God out of Love. God in turn Gives what was Given back to those who need it. Love(the biblical kind and not the obscure undefined kind) and Works do Go hand in Hand. You just need to know where and how to look.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Seems that if any here are not familiar to what love is to your delusional God, then it is his fault as he has not deemed it fit to correct us.

As to God being love. Love does not kill those he loves and your God does much killing.

Love is as love does.

Your God of unconditional love places quite a few conditions to gain his unconditional love.

Regards
DL

God's unconditional love has nothing to do with us, God's unconditional love was before creation. If it were not, God would have never created a people that was going to disobey Him and reject Him. Would you bring home a dog that you knew would bite you every time you feed it, I think not, your love is not unconditional. Then why would God create us, His unconditional love for us allows Him to accept the disobedience of His creation, and more importantly He is able to redeem us. We however will not forgive a dog that bites us every day, so there is no redemption for the dog.
Also you said that at the every least man should tell others he loves them, and said that is works. Let me remind you, Jesus nowhere in scripture says that lip serves is work or deeds.

[R-e-n-n-a-t]

God's unconditional love has nothing to do with us, God's unconditional love was before creation. If it were not, God would have never created a people that was going to disobey Him and reject Him. Would you bring home a dog that you knew would bite you every time you feed it, I think not, your love is not unconditional. Then why would God create us, His unconditional love for us allows Him to accept the disobedience of His creation, and more importantly He is able to redeem us. We however will not forgive a dog that bites us every day, so there is no redemption for the dog.
Also you said that at the every least man should tell others he loves them, and said that is works. Let me remind you, Jesus nowhere in scripture says that lip serves is work or deeds.

If there is ever a point from beyond which no salvation is possible, then love is not unconditional. For example, assume for a moment that I went to Hell. If the love of a supposed deity was unconditional, I would be able to ask for and recieve forgiveness even after being sentenced to Hell. Otherwise, the love is not unconditional- there is at least one condition, the condition that I was not already sentenced to an eternity of Hell.