Posts: 3188
Threads: 8
Joined: December 9, 2011
Reputation:
31
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:21 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 5:06 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: You cannot deny that perception happens. But you can reasonably deny that a physical reality (or deity for that "matter") is necessary to support perception. Berkeley’s Idealism says, “Prove that physical matter exists,” and “Give me evidence of any reality other than perceived phenomena.”
The demand itself is a form of fallacy of stolen concept. The very validity of proof or evidence relies on existence independent of any perception. If existence were determined by perception, then there would be no such things as facts - since facts are required to be independent of any perception - and without facts, there would be no such thing as a proof.
Posts: 8711
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:23 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 5:13 pm)Chuck Wrote: To the maximum degree of evidence allowable within perception, no evidence for its non-existence is found.
And I would say, to the maximum degree of evidence allowable within perception there can be no evidence for either the existence or non-existence of physical reality. Therefore if you believe in physical reality you do so on faith.
Posts: 19789
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:25 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 5:31 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(March 14, 2012 at 5:23 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (March 14, 2012 at 5:13 pm)Chuck Wrote: To the maximum degree of evidence allowable within perception, no evidence for its non-existence is found.
And I would say, to the maximum degree of evidence allowable within perception there can be no evidence for either the existence or non-existence of physical reality. Therefore if you believe in physical reality you do so on faith.
I believe in physical reality on the evidence of my headache after I refused to accept the reality of the wall that I had perceived myself to be walking into.
"Head hurts" is more substantial than faith.
Posts: 67314
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:25 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 5:26 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Could have just cut to that chase, since you so desperately wanted to say what you just did...just like every other fundie we have here. -without further elaboration.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8711
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 5:39 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(March 14, 2012 at 5:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Could have just cut to that chase, since you so desperately wanted to say what you just did...just like every other fundie we have here. -without further elaboration.
Not like a fundie...I have Godel's incompleteness theorem on my side (I think), i.e. you cannot prove the system from within the system.
(March 14, 2012 at 5:25 pm)Chuck Wrote: "Head hurts" is more substantial than faith. "Head hurts" is a subjective phenomena.
Posts: 67314
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:39 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 5:45 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Another favorite of fundies. Love that I get to say this so often- "I don't think that means what you think it means" -without further elaboration.
"God" is a subjective fantasy. and?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8711
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:49 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 5:51 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(March 14, 2012 at 5:21 pm)genkaus Wrote: The very validity of proof or evidence relies on existence independent of any perception.
Agree. The question is whether perception occurs in physical reality or a purely mental one.
(March 14, 2012 at 5:21 pm)genkaus Wrote: If existence were determined by perception, then there would be no such things as facts - since facts are required to be independent of any perception - and without facts, there would be no such thing as a proof.
One need only provide a mechanism in which to ground facts. That ground could either be an enduring physical reality or a universally enduring observer. Both share the quality of Being-in-Itself.
Posts: 67314
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:50 pm
Excellent, provide your observer. Oh, wait, you mean talking about providing an observer, rgr, I get it. Garbage.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 19789
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:54 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 6:00 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(March 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (March 14, 2012 at 5:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Could have just cut to that chase, since you so desperately wanted to say what you just did...just like every other fundie we have here. -without further elaboration.
Not like a fundie...I have Godel's incompleteness theorem on my side (I think), i.e. you cannot prove the system from within the system.
(March 14, 2012 at 5:25 pm)Chuck Wrote: "Head hurts" is more substantial than faith. "Head hurts" is a subjective phenomena.
By all means, behave as if it were not objective and repeat the exercise of walking though the wall that is unreal but a phenomena of perception.
Posts: 8711
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 5:59 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 5:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Excellent, provide your observer. Oh, wait, you mean talking about providing an observer, rgr, I get it. Garbage.
For the sake of argument, you alone are the observer of reality. Nothing exists unless you observe it. Now prove to yourself that the phenomena you observe are supported by an actual physical reality and not just an illusion of it. Please state the form of that proof.
|
