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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:00 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 6:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
For the sake of argument, I am not, or titties would be falling from trees right now (I closed my eyes, observed it, and checked around for all the fallen tittyfruit). An argument that begins with fantasy will likely lead to a conclusion of fantasy. You claimed an observer, now provide it, don't wriggle, don't shift the burden of proof, don't change the subject. "All one has to do" I believe were your exact words. Well, good thing it's so simple. Now, hop-hop.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:04 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 5:54 pm)Chuck Wrote: Perhaps you care to will the subjectivity away and keeping walking through that non-existant walls that you but only perceive to be there. I'm not saying the wall is non-existent, only that its existence could be contingent upon physical reality OR a mental one.
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:05 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 6:07 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(March 14, 2012 at 5:59 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (March 14, 2012 at 5:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Excellent, provide your observer. Oh, wait, you mean talking about providing an observer, rgr, I get it. Garbage.
For the sake of argument, you alone are the observer of reality. Nothing exists unless you observe it. Now prove to yourself that the phenomena you observe are supported by an actual physical reality and not just an illusion of it. Please state the form of that proof.
There is no point in acting as if it is not. QED
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:06 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 5:49 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: One need only provide a mechanism in which to ground facts. That ground could either be an enduring physical reality or a universally enduring observer. Both share the quality of Being-in-Itself.
One could assert the above dichotomy, shift the burden of proof, and declare victory.
Oh, wait.
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:06 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 6:04 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (March 14, 2012 at 5:54 pm)Chuck Wrote: Perhaps you care to will the subjectivity away and keeping walking through that non-existant walls that you but only perceive to be there. I'm not saying the wall is non-existent, only that its existence could be contingent upon physical reality OR a mental one.
Hence the evidence and falsifiable prediction bit to separate them.
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:10 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 6:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You claimed an observer, now provide it, don't wriggle, don't shift the burden of proof, don't change the subject.
All I am saying is that we share the burden of proof. You must prove the existence of a physical reality independent of a mind that observes it. I must prove the existence of a mind independent of physical reality. Since neither of us can do that both of our ontological claims are equally valid.
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:11 pm
The sneaky excuses theists invent. If a god really did exist he would obviously exist and not need these bullshit sophestry tactics.
This Berkeleys Idealism can be used to argue for any god or goddess, or any other crazy crap you can come up with.
The funny thing, if someone was using all of these arguments to prove that Baal was the one true god the vast majority of people would reject all of them outright. Not because they realize they arguments are bogus, but because its the wrong God that they want evangelized.
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:11 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2012 at 6:14 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No Chad, we don't. I don't give a shit what you can imagine, you wish for what you imagine to be real. Your observer, your baby. Make your own case. I'd hate to think you were just letting shit slip out of your mouth with nothing to back it up... There are no inches to be had here, there is no give and take. This isn't a negotiation, it's time for you to show me something for putting up with all of your platitudes.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:16 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 6:10 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (March 14, 2012 at 6:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You claimed an observer, now provide it, don't wriggle, don't shift the burden of proof, don't change the subject.
All I am saying is that we share the burden of proof. You must prove the existence of a physical reality independent of a mind that observes it. I must prove the existence of a mind independent of physical reality. Since neither of us can do that both of our ontological claims are equally valid.
Valid my ass, make one unique prediction that stams directly from your assertion.
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RE: Berkeley's Idealism
March 14, 2012 at 6:19 pm
(March 14, 2012 at 6:10 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (March 14, 2012 at 6:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You claimed an observer, now provide it, don't wriggle, don't shift the burden of proof, don't change the subject.
All I am saying is that we share the burden of proof. You must prove the existence of a physical reality independent of a mind that observes it. I must prove the existence of a mind independent of physical reality. Since neither of us can do that both of our ontological claims are equally valid.
By that reasoning, my ontological claim to being the Great Old One Cthulhu is equally valid as well.
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