The question that shatters faith, forever.

[genkaus]

The effect on teachings is not at issue. The OP suggests that without historical support Christianity falls apart. So by what standard do we conclude that Jesus did not exist? If we say it is reasonable to believe Socrates existed based on the number and quality of the sources, then it would also be reasonable to say that Jesus existed.

The question in both cases is not just that Socrates or Jesus existed - its that they existed as described. Christianity is built on more than someone called Jesus existing at the turn of the century - it requires that he be born of a virgin, performed miracles and died and came back. In contrast, Socrates' philosophy does not rely on him in such a manner.

So, if using the same standard of proof, you conclude that Jesus was an mythical figure and Socrates was Plato's imaginary friend - Christianity falls apart and the Socratic method is still valid.

If you conclude that someone called Jesus probably existed, as did someone called Socrates - but there is no evidence of them existing as described - Christianity still falls apart, but the Socratic method is still valid.

[FallentoReason]

Was wondering - does anybody here believe in miracles occuring today. In my life, sometimes when I pray for sometime to happen, sometimes something happens but I can choose to see it as God working in my life or blow it off as coincidence.

For example, a couple of days ago I was very discouraged about some remarks someone had made to me when I tried to talk to him about God and was also somewhat depressed at reading about the leader of the LRA being a Christian. That day I felt like I should stop trying to help people believe in God altogether, but I prayed for guidance. Ten minutes later I was out walking on a bike path and a Christian friend I had not seen in about one year happened to be there on the bike path - it was very unexpected. He and I spoke and he encouraged me not to give up.

I have experienced other events like this in the course of my life - but what do you think?

If we're talking hardcore miracles like Jesus said we would be able to perform as believers, then no.

I have a Christian friend that prays for people on the street and hospitals. He has told me about the different diseases and conditions he has seen healed because of God. Then I think back to every time he prayed for my sicknesses and physical conditions (like my flat feet) and never have I been healed. His stories are heavily exaggerated I have concluded.

---

The effect on teachings is not at issue. The OP suggests that without historical support Christianity falls apart. So by what standard do we conclude that Jesus did not exist? If we say it is reasonable to believe Socrates existed based on the number and quality of the sources, then it would also be reasonable to say that Jesus existed.

The question in both cases is not just that Socrates or Jesus existed - its that they existed as described. Christianity is built on more than someone called Jesus existing at the turn of the century - it requires that he be born of a virgin, performed miracles and died and came back. In contrast, Socrates' philosophy does not rely on him in such a manner.

So, if using the same standard of proof, you conclude that Jesus was an mythical figure and Socrates was Plato's imaginary friend - Christianity falls apart and the Socratic method is still valid.

If you conclude that someone called Jesus probably existed, as did someone called Socrates - but there is no evidence of them existing as described - Christianity still falls apart, but the Socratic method is still valid.

Well put! I think there's nothing else to add to this..

[LiberalHearted]

So your answer is peer pressure? The reason you can not believe in God is because what "others" (Who could hate God for all you know) would not think highly of you? Forgive me but how foolish is that? That is like not wanting to date someone you love because of what your friends think. Why does your life have to be approved by your peers? why can't you be your own person? (Remember this when you ask about us not being able to do what we want to do)

Actually, you are an indoctrinated (hence the doctrine of the gospel) Pure reason and evidence (which you have yet to provide (clue: 1 book, translated over and over again isn't evidence)

You completely misunderstand. The verse i live by is 1thess 5:21 "Question ALL Things, and hold on to what id Good."

Actually since you don't know me, I'll explain former christians forced by fear of a parent(s) or social pressure (society which one lives) has been my experience. In addition to that experience and at least one atheist to rely upon in the family, I made questions to both xtians and the atheist. Reason one because it wins. Makes clear sense and aborts no reason, hence the choice not to have this fear which I experienced during my youth. As most religions are fear based. I checked into many.

This means do not just question the questionable, question also the foundational. I have answers for people because i too have already asked those questions. I have literally reconstructed every principle apologetic teaching and doctrine and kept what is "good."

Where would the evidence be in these answers? By the by, hung out w/priests in my day too, not to mention a bishop or several. Not much you can say to me that can be backed by evidence only faith. Which is not questioning a damn thing.

Why, in Leviticus the original 'law's was slavery not abolished?

Because Slavery is not a sin. Slavery sets a paradigm for the believer. One must become a slave to God. To be a proper slave one must understand the concept of slavery. Therefore we must have a biblical example/understanding of what a slave is.

Still no answer. Slavery is by reason/evidence an abominable practice. Therefore, immoral, certainly inhuman, and uncivilized.

What is worse, 70 years of absolute pain or an eternity separated from God in Agonizing pain because that person fell into sin? If we live a life of "Managed pain" (For we will not be given more than we can bear) we can live an eternity in the expressed will of God with complete contentment because we will know what the fruit of sin is and will not be tempted by it as just about all sentients who were created in the presents of God were.

You are kidding, lmfao. Been separated from religion/theism for quite a while, feel peaceful, compassionate, loving and kind. Hmmm even recently became vegetarian due to what happens w/our meat.

Now, physical pain different, yeah today I get to visit a pain management Dr. Wonderful thing science.

[Faith No More]

Was wondering - does anybody here believe in miracles occuring today. In my life, sometimes when I pray for sometime to happen, sometimes something happens but I can choose to see it as God working in my life or blow it off as coincidence.

For example, a couple of days ago I was very discouraged about some remarks someone had made to me when I tried to talk to him about God and was also somewhat depressed at reading about the leader of the LRA being a Christian. That day I felt like I should stop trying to help people believe in God altogether, but I prayed for guidance. Ten minutes later I was out walking on a bike path and a Christian friend I had not seen in about one year happened to be there on the bike path - it was very unexpected. He and I spoke and he encouraged me not to give up.

I have experienced other events like this in the course of my life - but what do you think?

It is most likely your pattern seeking brain perceiving a correlation that does not exist. Our brains are highly adept at perceiving patterns where there are none.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Apart from the New Testament, where was Jesus?

Look into the new testament.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Was wondering - does anybody here believe in miracles occuring today.

NO;due to the lack of credible evidence for even ONE. (ever)


Basic reason for claiming miracles; argument from incredulity,aka god of the gaps. IE "I'm too ignorant,too unimaginative or too stupid to think of anything else,therefore god/aliens did it"

[Drich]

Actually, you are an indoctrinated (hence the doctrine of the gospel) Pure reason and evidence (which you have yet to provide (clue: 1 book, translated over and over again isn't evidence)

And you succumbing to your peers for fear of how the may perceive you is what?? Freedom?
You are a cast iron pot calling the kettle black.

Where would the evidence be in these answers?

Evidence is found in the full fillment of the promises made in the Bible.

By the by, hung out w/priests in my day too, not to mention a bishop or several. Not much you can say to me that can be backed by evidence only faith. Which is not questioning a damn thing.

If you total exposure to God was through the faith of others like priests and bishops I can sincerely see where your skepticism comes from.

Building an understanding of God through the faiths and beliefs of others (Even priests and bishops) is next to impossible. That would be like learning how to court and marry a woman from a book. Sure the manual may put you in the ball park, but that is along way from you scoring a game winning home run. If you want to know who God is, you must seek Him out yourself and not depend on "others" to do it for you. Otherwise at best, you will have set yourself up to be a spectator of Christianity and not a Christian.

Still no answer.

It is an absolute answer. Slavery is not a sin there for it was not to be condemned.

Remember a sin is not based on popular morality, but God's unchanging Righteousness.

Slavery is by reason/evidence an abominable practice.

To whom the slave owner? the slave? The society the slave builds? or just to the self righteous?

Therefore, immoral, certainly inhuman, and uncivilized.

Which is Ironic because every great civilization was built on the backs of slaves. Without the contributions that slaves have provided you would not have the luxury of the moral high ground you have created for yourself to denounce all who that have come before you, and gave you the opportunity to denounce them.

slavery in the Hands of wicked men have always yielded everything you denounce. That said not all men who own slaves were wicked. More often than not, even in this countries past. slaves were cared for by honorable men just as well as employees are now. Not every instance of slavery is a wicked one. Granted there were many more wicked men than honorable, but that does not speak to the practice of slavery in of itself, but to the men who used slavery and slaves to make themselves wealthy at any cost even to sacrificing the people in their care for capitol gain.

Again God established this practice to reflect the type of relationship we are to have with Him. Christians are slaves and they serve their master with humility and respect. In turn We are treated as children of the Almighty God. If we did not have an understanding of what Biblical slavery/Godly slavery looked like, then we could all assume as you have that every kinda of slavery is always bad. Without God's example you could rightfully make the assertions that you have. Unfortunately to everyone paying reparations or having reparations being paid to them, this truth is lost in the US.

You are kidding, lmfao. Been separated from religion/theism for quite a while, feel peaceful, compassionate, loving and kind. Hmmm even recently became vegetarian due to what happens w/our meat.

By who standards? your own? or the community you live in? What if you lived in 1940's Germany would you also adopt your community's idea of peace, compassion, love and kindness???

Did you have any other questions about the bible or God?

[FallentoReason]

Remember a sin is not based on popular morality, but God's unchanging Righteousness.

is something morally right because God commanded it, or did God command it because it's morally right?

[Drich]

Remember a sin is not based on popular morality, but God's unchanging Righteousness.

is something morally right because God commanded it, or did God command it because it's morally right?

God is the standard, so what ever He commands is Righteousness. even if man with his personal sense of "morality" does not deem it so.

Remember "morality" is mans attempt at righteousness with the sin he is willing to live with incorperated into that standard. Godly righteousness is without any sin.

[FallentoReason]

God is the standard, so what ever He commands is Righteousness. even if man with his personal sense of "morality" does not deem it so.

So essentially it is (what I call) morally right because God commands it. This means morality is arbitrary. It can't be seen as good or bad because we are supposed to do simply what God says. Therefore, how is God good if good and bad become trivial labels? We are merely robots following a set of arbitrary laws. I don't know about you but I'm able to distinguish whether an action is morally right or wrong. It's as if morality isn't actually arbitrary. Why?