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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 10, 2012 at 4:49 pm
(April 10, 2012 at 7:46 am)genkaus Wrote: (April 9, 2012 at 10:13 pm)C Rod Wrote: You asked why it has to be blood atonement.
Undeserved forgiveness is merciful. It is because of love. He doesn't hold all our wrongs you want to fix and methodically and obsessively note. I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. Some wish not to hold everyone to their sin, in bondage and slaves to their mistakes. He wishes to free us and have the ability to free ourselves through admittance. What's wrong with that? It seems to take some reason, some notion to accept this clause. Do you think that notion is not enough?
Consider this principle applied in real world.
The judge's son is up on manslaughter charges for drunk driving that killed three people. The judge loves his son. He does not want to hold him to every sin and every wrong, but wishes to be merciful and give undeserved forgiveness. He does not want his son to live in bondage (prison) for his mistake. So the judge does whatever he can to make sure that the son walks free. What's wrong with this? Isn't this notion not enough?
The son should want to absolved his pain and offense to the victim's family. Even if the dad is able to free him, he knows he did something tragic and must make amends. The father's love is proven and the son's integrity is shown. But who would do those things, somebody who believes in forgiveness and redemption would but only because someone else showed it first(Jesus).
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 10, 2012 at 7:18 pm
(This post was last modified: April 10, 2012 at 7:38 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I never knew jesus, my parents handled forgiveness and redemption just fine (and they never met jesus either). Fail. Did you stop to consider all of the people you would be smearing with this statement btw? Those before your fairy tale, and all those after who think it's a complete crock of shit and still manage not to gut each other? Your own ancestors are turning in their fucking graves. Your boy is many thousands of years late to this party. Jesus is a first in any category whatsoever.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 10, 2012 at 8:09 pm
(April 10, 2012 at 7:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I never knew jesus, my parents handled forgiveness and redemption just fine (and they never met jesus either). Fail. Did you stop to consider all of the people you would be smearing with this statement btw? Those before your fairy tale, and all those after who think it's a complete crock of shit and still manage not to gut each other? Your own ancestors are turning in their fucking graves. Your boy is many thousands of years late to this party. Jesus is a first in any category whatsoever.
I have never seen that action done after Jesus. The very fact it popped in my head was because of Jesus. Its not impossible without Jesus but exemplified that forgiveness. Yea i bet your mom and dad were just great, it doesn't mean everyone's is. I rarely on a day to day basis see actions like that, over the news or in my town.
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 10, 2012 at 8:20 pm
I don't believe in hell...but here is the thing.
Assuming God exists and he is the perfect moral being, then his judgment is absolute and right. If it was good to wish and want x people to be in heaven, then surely God would have that will.
If God wills that x people go to hell, then it's good for us to will that such people go to hell.
So it wouldn't be right. Plus it's disrespectful and evil to think God will torture an innocent person forever for doing something good like wanting others to go to heaven.
i wouldn't disrespect God like that...
but i don't believe in hell...
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 10, 2012 at 9:06 pm
(This post was last modified: April 10, 2012 at 9:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You've never seen forgiveness or redemption? I'm going to have to nitpick you here and state quite plainly that you never saw jesus do anything at all.
Or is it scapegoating that you've never seen? Good for you, it's fucking terrible.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 10, 2012 at 10:11 pm
(April 10, 2012 at 4:49 pm)C Rod Wrote: The son should want to absolved his pain and offense to the victim's family. Even if the dad is able to free him, he knows he did something tragic and must make amends. The father's love is proven and the son's integrity is shown. But who would do those things, somebody who believes in forgiveness and redemption would but only because someone else showed it first(Jesus).
Oh, the son wants to be absolved. The victim's family wants to hold him responsible, but the judge wants to "absolve" him of his sins as long as the son says he is sorry. So, according to you, that is enough? It is okay to go around stealing and killing as long as you say "sorry" and regret it afterwards? That says a lot about your religion and its nothing flattering.
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 13, 2012 at 7:05 pm
(This post was last modified: April 13, 2012 at 7:20 pm by C Rod.)
(April 10, 2012 at 9:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You've never seen forgiveness or redemption? I'm going to have to nitpick you here and state quite plainly that you never saw jesus do anything at all.
Or is it scapegoating that you've never seen? Good for you, it's fucking terrible.
Sacrifice not scapegoating.
(April 10, 2012 at 10:11 pm)genkaus Wrote: (April 10, 2012 at 4:49 pm)C Rod Wrote: The son should want to absolved his pain and offense to the victim's family. Even if the dad is able to free him, he knows he did something tragic and must make amends. The father's love is proven and the son's integrity is shown. But who would do those things, somebody who believes in forgiveness and redemption would but only because someone else showed it first(Jesus).
Oh, the son wants to be absolved. The victim's family wants to hold him responsible, but the judge wants to "absolve" him of his sins as long as the son says he is sorry. So, according to you, that is enough? It is okay to go around stealing and killing as long as you say "sorry" and regret it afterwards? That says a lot about your religion and its nothing flattering.
What is the sentencing for 3 counts of manslaughter? The son has to pay that price for his mistake, i never said he didn't. The father wants to free him and can even have it happen but son should refuse and accept his punishment. Yea when you assume something about something you don't understand and believe it to be true because you want to, you come off very unflattering and ignorant.
(April 10, 2012 at 8:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't believe in hell...but here is the thing.
Assuming God exists and he is the perfect moral being, then his judgment is absolute and right. If it was good to wish and want x people to be in heaven, then surely God would have that will.
If God wills that x people go to hell, then it's good for us to will that such people go to hell.
So it wouldn't be right. Plus it's disrespectful and evil to think God will torture an innocent person forever for doing something good like wanting others to go to heaven.
i wouldn't disrespect God like that...
but i don't believe in hell...
I thought that too, about the disrespect. Why don't you believe in hell?
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 14, 2012 at 12:08 am
Quote:There is one only defect in forgiving persons, and not another; that defect is that people take a forgiving person to be weak. That defect, however, should not be taken into consideration, for forgiveness is a great power. Forgiveness is a virtue of the weak, and an ornament of the strong. Forgiveness subdues (all) in this world; what is there that forgiveness cannot achieve? What can a wicked person do unto him who carries the sabre of forgiveness in his hand? Fire falling on the grassless ground is extinguished of itself. And unforgiving individual defiles himself with many enormities. Righteousness is the one highest good; and forgiveness is the one supreme peace; knowledge is one supreme contentment; and benevolence, one sole happiness.
— The Mahabharata, estimated composition ca. 800-900 BCE; finalized in the 3rd-4th century BCE
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 14, 2012 at 8:26 am
(This post was last modified: April 14, 2012 at 8:41 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Scapegoating is a "sacrifice", doesn't change it from being scapegoating CRod. If there were no sacrifice it wouldn't be called scapegoating. Just random cruelty. As it is, scapegoating is senseless, ignorant, and vile but never random. There is always some end that those engaged in it hope to achieve. Just so happens that I take issue both with scapegoating and the ends that believers in scapegoating hope to achieve by it.
I've seen sacrifice and scapegoating (and both by human beings, no invocations of fairy tale bullshit required), one can be done without invoking the other. Your god could have sacrificed it's will, for example, without scapegoating some poor creature.
"The father wants to free him and can even have it happen but son should refuse and accept his punishment." -Which, transferring this analogy back to the source, would mean refusing the "gift" or "sacrifice" of scapegoating christ. This is what I've been beating my head against a wall to explain in the first place, that this "gift" is unacceptable. For some reason you are capable of realizing this easily when the object is anything other than your myths. Again, this sort of faith crushes us in so many ways.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 14, 2012 at 5:42 pm
(April 13, 2012 at 7:05 pm)C Rod Wrote: What is the sentencing for 3 counts of manslaughter? The son has to pay that price for his mistake, i never said he didn't. The father wants to free him and can even have it happen but son should refuse and accept his punishment. Yea when you assume something about something you don't understand and believe it to be true because you want to, you come off very unflattering and ignorant.
But the same is not applicable where god is concerned? When its time for god to judge, people do not have to pay the price for their own mistakes - they can accept Jesus and go scot-free. But your point here is well-made. Any moral and self-respecting man would spit on the offer your god makes and accept the consequences of his own actions.
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